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Old 03-06-2011, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Steelers, is that a gradient scale?

I'm just looking at the patches of Europe...kinda interesting.

Regarding cultural differences between Ethiopia and African-American. From my understanding, few if any Ethiopian descent ended up in the Americas, did they?

Certainly agree that African-Americans were 'Americanized', and a sort of structural racism that prevented African from being African, contrary to say, Brazil or Haiti, who were able to keep some traditions. That being said, I always got the impression that African culture throughout the Americas where it was able to 'come with them', was more similar to West Africa than to the Horn of Africa.

Not saying that Ethiopians aren't black, you can take one look at them and see that they are (protecting myself from side discussions on that issue). But, culturally, there are a lot of differences throughout Africa despite shared DNA. (Much like Germans and Italians are quite different despite both being white europeans). Not disagreeing with anything you are saying, just contributing to an interesting discussion.
I agree with you. Below is a map of Europe superimposed over West Africa. The distance from where African Americans were taken from to Ethiopia is about the same distance between Great Britain and Iran. So both the English and Persians are "white", but...what exactly does that mean? I think it is interesting to see that the areas where the Muslim African kingdoms were located who are often accused of selling their own people into slavery are about as close to Portugal as they are to the "slave coast". Did they really view the slaves they were capturing as "their own people"?

 
Old 03-06-2011, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
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Google Image Result for http://thegeneticatlas.com/Y-DNA_map.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.simonhoyt.com/hoytdna_files/Y-Haplogroups-1500AD-World-Map.gif

Yes, I know I said I was done with this debate, but I would like to know more about the chart Steelers10 showed. I couldn't enlarge it. It looked to me to be a chart describing the % existence of ONE certain chromizonal marker in found in each population. I couldn't see the chart, but it appeared it was very generous with its gradiation scale, meaning even a small percent % of the population having the maker was a shade of green.

The two charts I posted show the all Y-chromizons (sorry my spelling sucks) found in the population, in proportion to their frequency. Both clearly show distinct Y-DNA markers (light brown in the first, light blue in the second) in North Africa that are not common to sub-Saharan Africans. The North African profiles are unique, but show much more admixture with other people of the Eastern Mediterranean basin and Arabia, than sub-saharan Africa. Again, I see the same about 3 Y-chromosone markers in N. Africa, Southern Europe, and the Middle East just in different proportions. There is a small portion of sub-Saharan "Y"s in N. Africa, but not nearly as much as the previously mentioned areas until you get far down the Nile Valley or deep into the desert.

Update: I squinted at Steelers10's chart, as I suspected the differenence in color scale between a population having 100% of that DNA marker and 15% was very faint. Meaning, it isn't a very good representation of the scale of prevalance of the gene they are tracking. My charts showing the % of ALL Y-chrom groups in a population is more telling of the gene distribution in the population.

Last edited by westsideboy; 03-06-2011 at 12:04 PM..
 
Old 03-06-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,687 posts, read 34,675,136 times
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I can't read the gradient chart very well either - but it is interesting.

But I have read that 'slavs' originally meant 'slaves' - referring to slavic countries in eastern europe. I've read that many slavics have been taken by the Arabic world over the centuries as well....which is interesting that some have some DNA connection there as well with the African continent.

I think the numbers are small, but there. Just kind of interesting, although don't know much about any correlation though.
 
Old 03-06-2011, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Actually, there is biological basis of race. It is important to remember that the prevailing theory is that all human beings share a common ancestoral group less than 100k years ago. This makes all humans closer relatives than Chimps from opposite sides of the Congo River.

None the less, you can look at someone's DNA and determine their geographic origin. If you want to call that "race" or not is up to you.

Lewontin's Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A.W.F. Edwards, the scientist that found Lewontin's Fallacy says,

"It is not true that "racial classification is . . . of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance". It is not true, as Nature claimed, that "two random individuals from any one group are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world" and it is not true, as the New Scientist claimed, that "two individuals are different because they are individuals, not because they belong to different races" and that "you can’t predict someone’s race by their genes".
 
Old 03-06-2011, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I can't read the gradient chart very well either - but it is interesting.

But I have read that 'slavs' originally meant 'slaves' - referring to slavic countries in eastern europe. I've read that many slavics have been taken by the Arabic world over the centuries as well....which is interesting that some have some DNA connection there as well with the African continent.

I think the numbers are small, but there. Just kind of interesting, although don't know much about any correlation though.
The gene transfer went both ways. In ancient times anyone of any ethnic group could become "Roman" or "Greek" if they adopted the language and culture. Since the Roman world extended throughout the entire Mediterranean Sea, it is only logical to assume a steady gene transfer from Southern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.

There is no need to resort to explanations of maurauding bands of Arab slave traders or ravaging Moors to explain the genetic diversity. The people did it on their own as part of large connected empire for nearly 1000 years.
 
Old 03-06-2011, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Mystery solved. Haplogroup "E" is a major Y chromo group that includes nurmerous subgroups. It began in Africa (no surprise since it is cradle of humanity) and spread outword. Steelers10 map shows all generic "E" haplogroups.

Here is a better map of all of general group "E"

File:Haplogrupo E-ADN-Y.GIF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The specific North African group of the
"E" family is thought to have arisen about 22,000 years ago!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

and...

"All major sub-branches of E1b1b1 are thought to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in North Africa, East Africa, or nearby areas of the Near East. While this means that E1b1b may have a longer history in Africa than many other Y haplogroups, some of the major branches found outside of Africa may have been out of Africa for more than ten thousand of years. For example Battaglia et al. (2007) estimated that E-M78 ("E1b1b1a1" in that paper) has been in Europe this long."

The light brown on my map shows that E1b1b, the "North African gene" I have been refering to is found in high proportions in North Africa and East Africa, and in smaller, but significant amounts in the Middle East and Southern Europe

http://thegeneticatlas.com/Y-DNA_map.jpg

Notice this group is found in only a few of the Subsaharan African sample groups, and where it does appear, it shows up in at the same or less frequency than in the Middle East and Southern Europe. The subsaharan Africa groups have a different Y-chromo profile indicated on the first map as the rather vague "DE" but can better be described on this map as ExE3b

http://www.simonhoyt.com/hoytdna_fil...-World-Map.gif

This group is thought to have originiated in West Africa and spread through the rest of subsaharan Africa through the Bantu expansions.

Can DNA Tell What "Race" You Are? - a knol by Frank W Sweet

This link contains one of the above map I posted, and some good explanation on the ExE3b
Y-chromo group, and explains in good terms why all of this discussion doesn't translate very well into "race" which has been a big sticking point for all of us.

I hope in conclusion, my data, is enough to show that the North Africans share a unique DNA profile, that the majority of males contains a "E" group that is clearly their own, and not the same as the "E" group in subsaharan Africa it split from 22,000 years ago. The rest of the North African population carries "Y" markers that show admixture with their Middle Eastern and Southern European neighbors more than it shows contact with sub-saharan Africa, which makes sense since these groups have had 22,000 years of easy communication with the rest of the Mediterrean people.

There is no evidence of a mass scale "Arab" genocide of the locals. If this genocide did occur, the "Y" DNA profile of North Africa would look like most of sub-saharan Africa where one group, the Bantus effectively replaced (at least on the male "Y" chromo side) the previous natives. I believe sub-saharan Africa still does have the most "m" or female DNA diversity in the world, indicating Bantu males "out-competed" most of the local males and then intermixed with the local women.

Looping all the way back around, Ethopia is clearly very special, because it does contain both "E" groups we have been discussing. This makes sense as Ethopia and the Nile valley would be the only route of transmission for mixture and dispersal of different African genes. The Sahara is one beast of a desert and effectively cut off North Africa from the rest of the contintent, except through this narrow cooridor, which includes both ancient "Kemet" (is that right?) and modern Egypt. And this explains perfectly why we see tranisitional phenotypes in Ethopia and the Nile valley from the darker natives of subsaharan Africa, to the lighter ones of the North African coast, the Middle East and Southern Europe.

I have no doubt much has changed in the 22,000 years since E1b1b1, first moved into North Africa, but since then this region has been sharing genes with their Mediterrenean neighbors more than subsahran African.

Last edited by westsideboy; 03-06-2011 at 04:40 PM..
 
Old 03-07-2011, 09:48 AM
 
314 posts, read 620,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Google Image Result for http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/images/051005_tutsface.jpg

King Tut National Geographic style. I am sure a lot of white dudes work for them too.
SMH..That whitewashed revisionary version of Tut is exactly what I meant when I mentioned the Ancient Egyptian archeology field being dominated by delusional Eurocentrics whom have no shame or conscious in letting their racial biases influence their work's results..The idiots whom came up with that watered down Eurasian Tut are obviously covert white supremacist and thus lack credibility...

Really what are they basing that depiction of Tut on other than their white nationalist pride and wishful thinking?

This is how Tut really looked as according to his by his people(The Ancient Egyptians) whom lived and communicated with him daily.

http://overthetopblog.dallasnews.com...%20Exhibit.JPG

I would think the Ancient Egyptians African depiction of their King would be more accurate than modern Anglo Europeans/Amerikkkans Ancient Egyptian archeologist pseudoscience Eurasian reanimation.
 
Old 03-07-2011, 10:14 AM
 
314 posts, read 620,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Identity is really about self-identity.

I think these days, based on Darfur, the arabic world separates themselves from the subsaharan world. That being said, they also intertwine in places as well.

But, back 'in the day', particularly if Egypt was darker than most of the people they seemed to be around - and I just imagine biblical Egypt. Than it makes sense they might refer to themselves as 'black'. Although I always had the impression that Ethiopians were 'blacker', and they had some biblical references as well, I think.

What makes any argument here difficult to pinpoint is the frames of references can be all over the place dependent on culture and time.
Yeah it's ashame that unfortunately the same Middle Easterners/Eurasians whom whom colonized Ancient Egypt/North Africa obviously have been able to atleast partially mentally conquer the minds of many modern decendents of the Ancient Kemite/Ku****es in Northern Sudan whom were able to atleast physically halt the advancement of the Islamic Eurasian colonization of the region to Egypt...But really the Darfur conflict is tribal more than anything..Even most of those whom self identity themselves as arabs know they are blacks..I've had a Northern Sudanese guy tell me they only consider themselves arabs for political reasons and cause they speak the language

I agree about Egypt...As for Ethiopians there are many different ethnic gorups there some darker than others....Also it's been theorized by some Sudanese that they are the original/Ancient Ethiopians...I'm not sure how accurate that is but Ethiopia is an historically Christian country and I find it odd that Mohammed's right hand man was called an Ethiopian..Furthermore Ethiopians relatively recently changed their country's name to Ethiopia..Before the country was called Abyssinia.
 
Old 03-07-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brother's keeper View Post
SMH..That whitewashed revisionary version of Tut is exactly what I meant when I mentioned the Ancient Egyptian archeology field being dominated by delusional Eurocentrics whom have no shame or conscious in letting their racial biases influence their work's results..The idiots whom came up with that watered down Eurasian Tut are obviously covert white supremacist and thus lack credibility...

Really what are they basing that depiction of Tut on other than their white nationalist pride and wishful thinking?

This is how Tut really looked as according to his by his people(The Ancient Egyptians) whom lived and communicated with him daily.

http://overthetopblog.dallasnews.com...%20Exhibit.JPG

I would think the Ancient Egyptians African depiction of their King would be more accurate than modern Anglo Europeans/Amerikkkans Ancient Egyptian archeologist pseudoscience Eurasian reanimation.
Olive branch, dude. We aren't going to find common ground on this issue. You don't agree with much about science. I don't agree with you throwing around claims of racial bias as your main retort to my evidence. So, lets just agree to disagree on this, OK?

Last edited by westsideboy; 03-07-2011 at 10:56 AM..
 
Old 03-07-2011, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Montgomery Village
4,120 posts, read 3,694,840 times
Reputation: 1693
Steelers10 speaks alot of truth. Thought this was a thread about Ethiopians in silver spring. All the ones I talk to say they are black. But it true the DNA admixture has happened in the past in the Egypt area. Besides Egypt is like the most conquered Kingdom in history.lol Looking at all the DNA data with the Haplogroups both of your points westside and brother's keeper are proven within it.
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