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Old 02-25-2011, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
4,344 posts, read 4,564,773 times
Reputation: 3609
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneGrail View Post
If the government got the hell out of the marriage business (which it has no business being in anyway) and treated it as a private contract between consenting individual adults, there wouldn't be this stupid controversy.
The government protects citizens. Part of that protection is creating and enforcing the law on contracts. You can't HAVE a legal contract without the law and the law can't exist/be enforced without the government. Period.

In this case, it's a contract enabling two individual citizens to become legally one citizen in hundreds of legal ways as regards rights conferred upon an individual citizen, thus it IS the governments business.

Marriage, by making a union of two people, has for some it's religious components, but the legal components are many and definitely government business.

Quote:
Wanna marry a tree because you like to screw knotholes? Knock yourself out buddy. I could care less as long as you're not screwing a tree on my property.
If you think marriage is only about who you screw, then you haven't been paying attention to people who have sex without marriage, and people who already have sex with animals and inanimate objects. Marriage as a contract is about pretty much everything else (except about the part where it allows for breach of contract if a partner in the union so chooses when the other partner has sex outside the union). You don't need a marriage to have sex. you DO need it to make legal decisions for your partner or gain insurance/tax benefits as a single legal entity.

As for your tree example, the contractual part of marriage is moot, as the tree cannot make legal decisions for the human, sign for them in proxy, or make medical decisions in case of incapacititaion/coma. That's what marriage contract is about and th epart that government is involved with. Governemtn has NEVER neen involved with the religious side of marriage, and couldn't care less if you are of different religions or if you are not religious at all (for example, my marriage is not based on religion, either).

The religious side of marriage is Holy Matrimony, and your church can affect how that part plays out. Marriage is how th eunion is percieved in the eyes of the law, as a contract between two citizens (or can confer citizenry rights on one of the partners as an adult who CAN be a citizen).
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Bodymore, Murderland
436 posts, read 615,964 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
The government protects citizens. Part of that protection is creating and enforcing the law on contracts. You can't HAVE a legal contract without the law and the law can't exist/be enforced without the government. Period.

In this case, it's a contract enabling two individual citizens to become legally one citizen in hundreds of legal ways as regards rights conferred upon an individual citizen, thus it IS the governments business.

Marriage, by making a union of two people, has for some it's religious components, but the legal components are many and definitely government business.



If you think marriage is only about who you screw, then you haven't been paying attention to people who have sex without marriage, and people who already have sex with animals and inanimate objects. Marriage as a contract is about pretty much everything else (except about the part where it allows for breach of contract if a partner in the union so chooses when the other partner has sex outside the union). You don't need a marriage to have sex. you DO need it to make legal decisions for your partner or gain insurance/tax benefits as a single legal entity.

As for your tree example, the contractual part of marriage is moot, as the tree cannot make legal decisions for the human, sign for them in proxy, or make medical decisions in case of incapacititaion/coma. That's what marriage contract is about and th epart that government is involved with. Governemtn has NEVER neen involved with the religious side of marriage, and couldn't care less if you are of different religions or if you are not religious at all (for example, my marriage is not based on religion, either).

The religious side of marriage is Holy Matrimony, and your church can affect how that part plays out. Marriage is how th eunion is percieved in the eyes of the law, as a contract between two citizens (or can confer citizenry rights on one of the partners as an adult who CAN be a citizen).
You obviously believe that govt should play a bigger role in our personal lives than do I.

If someone breaches a contract, you can sue them for violating the terms of a contract. Regulating all these aspects of people's personal lives shouldn't be the responsibility of the government, despite the fact that it's already got it's grubby hands in it.
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
2,950 posts, read 3,951,589 times
Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
The government protects citizens. Part of that protection is creating and enforcing the law on contracts. You can't HAVE a legal contract without the law and the law can't exist/be enforced without the government. Period.

In this case, it's a contract enabling two individual citizens to become legally one citizen in hundreds of legal ways as regards rights conferred upon an individual citizen, thus it IS the governments business.

Marriage, by making a union of two people, has for some it's religious components, but the legal components are many and definitely government business.



If you think marriage is only about who you screw, then you haven't been paying attention to people who have sex without marriage, and people who already have sex with animals and inanimate objects. Marriage as a contract is about pretty much everything else (except about the part where it allows for breach of contract if a partner in the union so chooses when the other partner has sex outside the union). You don't need a marriage to have sex. you DO need it to make legal decisions for your partner or gain insurance/tax benefits as a single legal entity.

As for your tree example, the contractual part of marriage is moot, as the tree cannot make legal decisions for the human, sign for them in proxy, or make medical decisions in case of incapacititaion/coma. That's what marriage contract is about and th epart that government is involved with. Governemtn has NEVER neen involved with the religious side of marriage, and couldn't care less if you are of different religions or if you are not religious at all (for example, my marriage is not based on religion, either).

The religious side of marriage is Holy Matrimony, and your church can affect how that part plays out. Marriage is how th eunion is percieved in the eyes of the law, as a contract between two citizens (or can confer citizenry rights on one of the partners as an adult who CAN be a citizen).
Not exactly true. Our right as citizens to form contracts comes from the common law, a natural right that has existed before "laws" were even codified, it is not granted to us by Maryland or federal government. Contacts can be valid rather written or oral, so long as the basic elements are met. Goverment's role in contract law is to determine whether contracts are vaild and enforceable, or to litigate disputes in terms of a breach of the contract.

In 99% of all contracts, the government need not get involved because there is no diagreement among the parties. Goverment only steps in if one (or both) parties feel that the one party violated the contract, then they can file a claim, and the court will enforce the standards of the common law.

Marriage need not be any different. If two individuals sign a contract giving each other 50% share of what they own, equal rights to common children, rights of inheritence, Power of attorney for medical matters, etc. It can be a vaild contract, and need not be called "marriage" at all.

This whole argument is dumb. There should be no civil "marriage" for any people of any gender at all. If you want to get "married" go to a church.

If all you are interested in is forming a contract with another individual both giving and receiving certain legal rights, go to an attorney(or do it yourself if you know how), sign a contract, and that is that. If someone breaches the contract, then a party, under common law, can seek remedy from the court. "Marriage" is such a loaded word, which is why the homosexual population is SO interested in claiming it for their own, and why the opponents are SO opposed to allowing it to be called that.

It is a semantic p*ssing contest that distracts lawmakers from addressing the real issues in the state. I think the plan is to spend the whole legislative session debating gay "marriage" and renaming mountains, then slip a bunch of new taxes and tax increases in the last couple days when no one is paying attention.

Last edited by westsideboy; 02-25-2011 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
2,950 posts, read 3,951,589 times
Reputation: 1187
It looks like the Gay Marriage Bill in Maryland is dead for at least one more year. They seem to have been 1 vote short in the House for passage.

Gay marriage: Maryland House of Delegates declines vote on gay marriage bill - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gay-marriage-20110312,0,801473.story - broken link)
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:20 AM
Status: "Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
15,773 posts, read 14,179,977 times
Reputation: 14542
More than one vote.
This isn't aimed at you Westside but at those who think they know MD politics.
The move back to the Judiciary Committee, effectively killing the bill this year is, in reality, a good tactic and strategy by supporters.
In MD, having a controversial bill defeated in the full House guarantees that it won't see the light of day again for years, if ever. Supporters were aware of that and had actually been told early in the session to maybe think about holding off an attempt at passage this year and spend the next year building support. In retrospect that was good advice and is actually what is now happening.
On a personal note, I was criticized earlier, prior to passage by the Senate, for "crowing" how the Senate would probably not approve it. I also said the House probably would. Obviously I, and many others, were incorrect.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
2,950 posts, read 3,951,589 times
Reputation: 1187
I also wonder if the supporters would be loathe to have the referendum come onto the ballot in 2012. It is still too early to know for sure, but it may be another bad cycle for Democrats, except the AA population turning out to support Obama and maybe some blue dog Union grass roots effort. I don't think either of these Dem sub-segments would be likely to support gay marriage.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles California
10,371 posts, read 8,592,029 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
And when it gets taken to referendum? Do you really think the Black churches will support it?
why are the blacks so bigoted?
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles California
10,371 posts, read 8,592,029 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAILEYR View Post
If gay marriage does pass in oue state it still won't be legal in Gods law, so in all actuality it can't be legal. It's just like taking your oath under God in court when you raise your right hand and swear under Gods law. it's exactly the same thing. The last time I checked it was Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve.
Why do you overlook so many parables that were written in Leviticus? The bible says also that you should welcome illegal aliens, not have intercourse with a woman during her period, not eat shellfish, etc. do you believe in those too or just pick whatever suits you?
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
2,950 posts, read 3,951,589 times
Reputation: 1187
They aren't parables in Leviticus, parables are the allegorical stories told by Jesus. Leviticus lays downs the Mosaic Law in great, excruiating detail. Your point is well made, if you follow every Old Testiment law, you would have to have a separate shed in your back yard for your menstrating wife, couldn't eat steamed crabs, but could keep slaves.
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Status: "Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
15,773 posts, read 14,179,977 times
Reputation: 14542
I could have used the shed idea until a couple years ago when the Change hit. There are days with the Change when the shed would work, too.
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