U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Maryland
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-08-2013, 07:21 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 10,725,881 times
Reputation: 3092

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post

I agree with Harry in that Ocean City is the only reason Maryland will not let the Eastern Shore secede even though the majority of Shore residents wish that could happen. .

You are in outer orbit, Tom.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-08-2013, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,185 posts, read 21,737,838 times
Reputation: 6116
So what would an Eastern Shore secession accomplish? For one, it only holds, what, 8% of Maryland's population. If it became it's own State, how would it generate revenue? What if it joins with Delaware? And why would Delaware even want to be a part of the Eastern Shore or the Eastern Shore a part of Delaware? Not to mention, if I remember correctly, those who live in Southern Delaware are against development as it is, so the Eastern Shore would be back at square one.

And I can just see it now....Delmarva becomes an official State, gets its own dedicated City Data forum, and we have hundreds of pages arguing if Delmarva is a Southern State or not.

As for Western Maryland joining West Virginia...you do realize, and if I remember correctly, West Virginia seceded from Virginia because that region wanted to remain with the Union. If it is simply about identity and who you identity with, sure, okay. But judging by many of the comments in the other thread (Is Maryland a Southern State), it seems many see Western Maryland as "Southern". Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Pretty much all States wear various hats and have distinct regions of difference. The problem with Maryland is the size of the State, which tends to crowd the different regions together and gives Maryland an identity crisis.

If a portion of a State wants to secede, I have no problem with it. Heck, I definitely support a Nor Cal/So Cal split myself. The problem with an Eastern Shore secession seems to be knee-jerk reaction, a sort of shoot first-ask question later response to the rest of Maryland. In the end, the Eastern Shore is more likely to shoot itself in the foot as I have not read any valid solutions to what would happen when Delmarva is created as it seems the idea is to create it first, then deal with the logistics later.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
Reputation: 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
So what would an Eastern Shore secession accomplish? For one, it only holds, what, 8% of Maryland's population. If it became it's own State, how would it generate revenue? What if it joins with Delaware? And why would Delaware even want to be a part of the Eastern Shore or the Eastern Shore a part of Delaware? Not to mention, if I remember correctly, those who live in Southern Delaware are against development as it is, so the Eastern Shore would be back at square one.

And I can just see it now....Delmarva becomes an official State, gets its own dedicated City Data forum, and we have hundreds of pages arguing if Delmarva is a Southern State or not.

As for Western Maryland joining West Virginia...you do realize, and if I remember correctly, West Virginia seceded from Virginia because that region wanted to remain with the Union. If it is simply about identity and who you identity with, sure, okay. But judging by many of the comments in the other thread (Is Maryland a Southern State), it seems many see Western Maryland as "Southern". Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?


Pretty much all States wear various hats and have distinct regions of difference. The problem with Maryland is the size of the State, which tends to crowd the different regions together and gives Maryland an identity crisis.

If a portion of a State wants to secede, I have no problem with it. Heck, I definitely support a Nor Cal/So Cal split myself. The problem with an Eastern Shore secession seems to be knee-jerk reaction, a sort of shoot first-ask question later response to the rest of Maryland. In the end, the Eastern Shore is more likely to shoot itself in the foot as I have not read any valid solutions to what would happen when Delmarva is created as it seems the idea is to create it first, then deal with the logistics later.

Western Maryland and WV were both union friendly during the Civil War. We are both part of Appalachia. Many consider this the Highland South, I won't argue. I don't really self-ID as a Southerner though, but as an Appalachian-American. WV is a pretty regionally diverse state too. The Northern Panhandle and the coal fields of Southern WV are very different and the residents have the same kind of disputes with each other about relative influence and importance in state government just like we have in Maryland.

I will say the parts of WV that border Western Maryland are very much like us. I can see WV out my window right now, in a fluke of geography, WV is actually closer to me than most of my own city. We would fit in as part of WV, or PA, much easier than Maryland. That being said, counties have no sovereignty, they exist solely as jurisdictional conveniences of the State. Maryland isn't going to let us get away, no matter how much of a money drain we are on them. It would look bad for the state politicians on the national stage and too many of them see our home as "the King's Forest." A sentiment many downstate residents share.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 01:05 PM
 
544 posts, read 854,667 times
Reputation: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
WV were both union friendly during the Civil War.
Marginally. A lot of Virginians and were suddenly and somewhat arbitrarily told that they were now allied with the Union. The state might have been officially a Union state, but it's a stretch to say that the majority of the populace shared those sympathies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 01:09 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,525 posts, read 11,614,071 times
Reputation: 3944
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
If only Montgomery and PGC leave, Maryland would still be a fairly blue state. Obama's margin of victory in MD was 623K votes and MoCo + PG only provided 461K of that margin. Add in Baltimore city and, well, even MD outside the entire 'big 3' (Baltimore City, MoCo, PG) just barely voted for Romney, by a mere ~14K margin, out of millions of votes cast. Part of your problem is that Baltimore County voted for Obama by a 17% margin and Howard County voted for him by a 21% margin, and sure enough those would be two of the largest jurisdictions in a 'big 3'-less state. You'd have to remove those two jurisdictions as well before Maryland's politics even begins to resemble that of Georgia or Tennessee (the two states you mentioned).

source President Map - Election 2012 - NYTimes.com
Perhaps but on the state level we will not be so radically liberal. At the very least, illegal aleisn would not get in-state tuition and drivers licenses, the death penalty will be safe, and our gun rights will be safe and the tolls and taxes will certainly be lower. We might have civil unions for gays but not complete marriages. That is the issue I care about least honestly but I fought with the Marriage Alliance simply because they fought against O'Malley. I see Democrat liberalism as the enemy and will fight with whoever fights against them.

I most care about taxes, business friendliness, illegal immigration (these 3 are intertwined), and abortion
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,525 posts, read 11,614,071 times
Reputation: 3944
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
So what would an Eastern Shore secession accomplish? For one, it only holds, what, 8% of Maryland's population. If it became it's own State, how would it generate revenue? What if it joins with Delaware? And why would Delaware even want to be a part of the Eastern Shore or the Eastern Shore a part of Delaware? Not to mention, if I remember correctly, those who live in Southern Delaware are against development as it is, so the Eastern Shore would be back at square one.

And I can just see it now....Delmarva becomes an official State, gets its own dedicated City Data forum, and we have hundreds of pages arguing if Delmarva is a Southern State or not.

As for Western Maryland joining West Virginia...you do realize, and if I remember correctly, West Virginia seceded from Virginia because that region wanted to remain with the Union. If it is simply about identity and who you identity with, sure, okay. But judging by many of the comments in the other thread (Is Maryland a Southern State), it seems many see Western Maryland as "Southern". Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Pretty much all States wear various hats and have distinct regions of difference. The problem with Maryland is the size of the State, which tends to crowd the different regions together and gives Maryland an identity crisis.

If a portion of a State wants to secede, I have no problem with it. Heck, I definitely support a Nor Cal/So Cal split myself. The problem with an Eastern Shore secession seems to be knee-jerk reaction, a sort of shoot first-ask question later response to the rest of Maryland. In the end, the Eastern Shore is more likely to shoot itself in the foot as I have not read any valid solutions to what would happen when Delmarva is created as it seems the idea is to create it first, then deal with the logistics later.
The Shore would have a better economy not being part of Maryland, especially with less restrictions and regulations on fishing and poultry farming, and more growth and development would be allowed, which is currently banned by PlanMaryland and other Democrat policies coming out of Annapolis. The Eastern Shore is economically self sufficient, especially if ALL of Ocean City's revenue is solely spent on the Shore and not diverted to the Washington suburbs and Baltimore City. Taxes will also be lower. Southern Delaware is very similar to the Shore......Wilmington is not and there will be the liberals there to deal with if the state of Delmarva will be forced but Wilmington will be in the minority if the Maryland and Virginia Eastern Shores were to join.

I don't think Delaware will allow it simply because Delaware itself is urban dominated....the Wilmington area dominates state politics and imposes its will on Sussex County. Wilmington will not allow the Eastern Shore to be with Delaware as it would dilute their liberal dominance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 01:22 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,525 posts, read 11,614,071 times
Reputation: 3944
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Western Maryland and WV were both union friendly during the Civil War. We are both part of Appalachia. Many consider this the Highland South, I won't argue. I don't really self-ID as a Southerner though, but as an Appalachian-American. WV is a pretty regionally diverse state too. The Northern Panhandle and the coal fields of Southern WV are very different and the residents have the same kind of disputes with each other about relative influence and importance in state government just like we have in Maryland.

I will say the parts of WV that border Western Maryland are very much like us. I can see WV out my window right now, in a fluke of geography, WV is actually closer to me than most of my own city. We would fit in as part of WV, or PA, much easier than Maryland. That being said, counties have no sovereignty, they exist solely as jurisdictional conveniences of the State. Maryland isn't going to let us get away, no matter how much of a money drain we are on them. It would look bad for the state politicians on the national stage and too many of them see our home as "the King's Forest." A sentiment many downstate residents share.
I agree they are afraid their vacation lands will be messed up (same with the Eastern Shore towns) if any additional development happens, especially natural gas drilling which does not leave as large a footprint as the Hollywood fantasy makers portray. They don't care about people who live in rural Maryland yearround and their livelihoods. I think that Terrapin Run would have benefited Western Maryland greatly. I'm actually surprised Ridgeley, WV is not more developed and hasn't attracted more businesss vs Cumberland given West Virginia's lower taxes and more business friendly environment. WV is also very Democratic though I hope thye start to realize the national Party no longer cares about rural blue collar folks like them (or suburban/industrial blue collar folks like Sparrows Point here)....its becoming the party of the liberal elites,the yuppies, the illegal aliens and the welfare types from the city.

I'm sure Deep Creek Lake contributes a lot to the state coffers, not as much as Ocean City, but still quite a bit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 01:26 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,525 posts, read 11,614,071 times
Reputation: 3944
And I think y'all need to think about this.......if the State does not benefit from the Eastern Shore being part of it......if its true like the Democrats claim that the state gives more to the Shore than it receives back.....then why will Annapolis not let the Shore secede? They would not have to deal with American patriots like Andy Harris, Pipkin, Smiegiel, and the small town, churchgoing folks of the Shore. It is because they need the Shore and other rural areas to pay for Baltimore City's welfare programs, and Montgomery County and Baltimore's transit needs. The new proposed STATEWIDE gas tax hike to build the Baltimore Red Line is a perfect example. And in terms of roads I think the state HAS given more to Western Maryland than the Eastern Shore with the contruction of I-68.......Route 50 still has not been upgraded to a freeway or to Interstate standards past the Bay Bridge. US 113 can also be made into a freeway at least from Berlin/US 50 interchange to the Virginia state line. Plus there needs to be a third bridge going to Ocean City or the Route 90 bridge needs to be widened to more than just two lanes anyone whose driven there in the summer should agree with me.

I think building a second Bay Bridge shoud come before building the REd Line or Purple Line.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
Reputation: 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by reiflame View Post
Marginally. A lot of Virginians and were suddenly and somewhat arbitrarily told that they were now allied with the Union. The state might have been officially a Union state, but it's a stretch to say that the majority of the populace shared those sympathies.
True. A more accurate statement would be that the Trans-Allegheny population in Wheeling and down the Ohio were strongly Union, most of the rest was split, and the Eastern Panhandle would almost certainly have stayed part of VA if not occupied by union troops.

Allegany County was split to, for what it is worth. The western part of the county was nearly 100% pro-Union, Cumberland proper and the eastern part of the county were more divided, although the Union supporters were the majority according to the local histories I have read.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 11:42 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,525 posts, read 11,614,071 times
Reputation: 3944
It certainly is interesting to hear about the historical differences in West Virginia. I can only assume the southern part of WV around Charleston was more pro-Confederate. When I was visiting Mineral County and Hampshire County right up by Cumberland I saw a few Confederate flags, which in Maryland I've only seen in Carroll County, the Eastern Shore, and eastern Baltimore County.

First Confederate Memorial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting that the first Confederate memorial anywhere in the nation was in Romney, WV! I have friends in that area and it is a wonderful little town.

Anyway with Western Maryland......yall are lucky that the portiosn on WV and Pennsylvania nearby are very isolated and not that developed (despite that Rocket Center facility) so less competition from those states more business friendly policies. I think you are right in pointing out Western MD's overdependence on the state and state resources but perhaps the region will be less dependent if the state allowed more commercial and residential development there which would increase the tax base and provide jobs, and if the state went ahead with natural gas fracking of the Marchellus Shale in Garrett and Alleghany Counties. And something like exporting natural gas would increase the state and local tax base and make it harder to justify the higher taxes. And again while there is less agriculture in the west, the farms that do exist will be more profitable without O'Malley's onerous environmental restrictions that farmers in other states have never even heard of.

I am sure the Deep Creek area can be further developed. If they can allow more housing and growth in that area people would definitely move there.

I think while Western Maryland is overlooked by the state the relationship with the central counties seems at least a bit better than between the state and the Eastern Shore counties. The central government's policies really create hardships and barriers toward a thriving agricultural industry. The recent lawsuit against Perdue chicken only highlights this. Farmers in other states do not have to deal with these kinds of costly regulations which are only there to satisfy the liberal sensibiliies of the Montgomery County and Howard County electorate who live far away from farms. Many farmers have a long-time understanding that they willl be able to sell their land to developers and retire yet that is suddenly being changed by PlanMaryland which hurts rural areas and devalues farmland. The farmland in the Tier 4 places especially are basically worthless since while development is not legally banned the state will not support sewer services and septic tanks are now illegal. I don't think the Montgomery COunty bureaucrats and liberals understand the concerns of rural residents adn the realities of rural economies. Most Eastern Shore residents would like to see more growth and development but the state is preventing that and devaluing farmers property values by taking away developmental rights.

It seems like the bureaucrats from MoCo only see their region and they have a lot of federal jobs (at least until the sequester hits full force) so they don't find a need to care about private industry, manufacturing, the private sector, mining, or fishing/farming in the rest of Maryland. They think Maryland will be fine as long as the federal dollars keep coming in, courtesy of hardworking ordinary Americans from the Kansas heartland, Kentucky coal country, Ohio Valley steel towns, and the Mississippi Delta. They are against any kind of economic development in the Eastern Shore or Western MD and perhaps want these areas to be dependent on the state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Maryland
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top