When Did Maryland Stop Being Southern (and Become Mid-Atlantic)? (Baltimore: low income, 2014)

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

I think you are moving the goal posts.

No, I'm not.

Originally Posted by westsideboy

There is no Maryland "as a whole" culturally, and there never was. Trying to discount the 200 year old regional identity of native populations of a state because there aren't enough of them to matter in your eyes is the mirror image of the arguments in the threads you claim you don't want to start. All of the Maryland North vs. South threads ultimately come down to whether historic regionalism matters or not in the opinion of the poster.

You seem to not understand that different parts of a state can be culturally different, but yet the state as a whole can be aligned with one region. For example, Northeastern Ohio feels the influence of Western Pennsylvania. Yet Ohio as a whole is a Midwestern state and only buffoons on City-Data would argue otherwise. Similarly, Western New York feels the influence of the Midwest, but the state of New York is solidly a Northeastern state. The same goes for a host of other states such as Oklahoma, Arkansas and Kentucky. The fact that these states have cultural influences from neighboring states--some of which are in different regions--does not impact their regional identity.

So, no, you're not giving me anything close to the answer I'm looking for. I'm looking mostly for historical evidence in the form of articles (older), regional association affiliations, etc. that show the state's movement away from a southern identity. But if you can find any type of credible source stating that Maryland was never, ever a southern state ever in its history, then please feel to provide that for our reading pleasure.

[David_J]

I would say Maryland shifted it's identity from Southern to Mid-Atlantic, at least to a degree, around 1980. That's when the transplants really came pouring in, and when Maryland shifted from Southern political affiliations to more Northern ones.

Naturally, the transplants mostly relocated to somewhere around DC or Baltimore. Maryland was already split up culturally, and this simply magnified the divide: growing up in MoCo during the 2000s, I always had believed that Maryland was culturally part of the Northeast. After moving to Frederick County, though, I saw a 3-way identity: along I-270 (especially Frederick city and more recently, Urbana), the Northern/Mid-Atlantic mindset was still maintained; in northern and northwestern parts of the county, people identified with Western Pennsylvania, and in southeastern parts of the county, some people maintained a Southern image.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by David_J

I would say Maryland shifted it's identity from Southern to Mid-Atlantic, at least to a degree, around 1980. That's when the transplants really came pouring in, and when Maryland shifted from Southern political affiliations to more Northern ones.

Naturally, the transplants mostly relocated to somewhere around DC or Baltimore. Maryland was already split up culturally, and this simply magnified the divide: growing up in MoCo during the 2000s, I always had believed that Maryland was culturally part of the Northeast. After moving to Frederick County, though, I saw a 3-way identity: along I-270 (especially Frederick city and more recently, Urbana), the Northern/Mid-Atlantic mindset was still maintained; in northern and northwestern parts of the county, people identified with Western Pennsylvania, and in southeastern parts of the county, some people maintained a Southern image.

Thank you for a straightforward, non-argumentative response.

Do you have any guess as to when the "Mid Atlantic" label rose to prominence? I think that's the answer most Marylanders would give if asked what region of the country they were located in. In Philadelphia, the first response would probably be "the Northeast." Depending on how much the person knows about geography, they might say "Mid Atlantic" after that, but my experience has been (growing up there) that the label is not used nearly as much as "Northeast." Some of my friends didn't even know there was such a thing as the "Mid-Atlanitc" until I told them. In the DC area, however, it seems to be the first thing a lot of people say when asked about their region.

[David_J]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

Thank you for a straightforward, non-argumentative response.

Do you have any guess as to when the "Mid Atlantic" label rose to prominence? I think that's the answer most Marylanders would give if asked what region of the country they were located in. In Philadelphia, the first response would probably be "the Northeast." Depending on how much the person knows about geography, they might say "Mid Atlantic" after that, but my experience has been (growing up there) that the label is not used nearly as much as "Northeast." Some of my friends didn't even know there was such a thing as the "Mid-Atlanitc" until I told them. In the DC area, however, it seems to be the first thing a lot of people say when asked about their region.

I really don't know, but I'd wager sometime just before the turn of the millennium. I suppose residents of Maryland, DC, and NoVA had such different opinions on whether to be called "Northern" or "Southern" that they decided to compromise. I really have no idea, but that's my best guess.

[MassVt]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

So the question is pretty much stated in the post.

Some people say the state stopped being southern after the Civil War. That doesn't quite seem right to me because Maryland was an an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Conference (in 1947) and is still a member of the Southern Governors Association. So I'd say the end of the Civil War was definitely not when Marylanders stopped identifying with the South (not to mention that "Maryland, My Maryland" wasn't adopted as the state song until the 1930s).

The flipside to this is when the state became "Mid-Atlantic." And I ask that because the "Middle Atlantic" is defined by the Census Bureau as New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. And that was a derivation of the "Middle Colonies," which included the same states plus Delaware (which used to be a part of Pennsylvania).

To be clear, this is not a thread about whether Maryland is currently a southern state or not (there are already 45,886,376 threads on that), but rather a thread about when the state shifted from a southern identity to a "Mid-Atlantic" identity that was exclusive of a southern identity.

Since most of Maryland is north of DC, then there might be a tendency to refer to MD as "Mid-Atlantic" rather than Southern..
Also, I believe that the immigration of many hundreds of thousands of Europeans in the late 19th/early 20th centuries changed the state into a more urban, mult-ethnic state, unlike the MD of earlier years..

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by MassVt

Also, I believe that the immigration of many hundreds of thousands of Europeans in the late 19th/early 20th centuries changed the state into a more urban, mult-ethnic state, unlike the MD of earlier years..

The only thing about that is that Marlyand still had a rather strong southern identity by the mid century. Some people dismiss the fact that the state joined both the SGA and the SLC in the 30s and 40s, but that definitely, in my mind at least, speaks to how a lot of people in the state thought during that time. We can't look at events in mid-twentieth century Maryland through a 21st Century lens. I'm not saying you're wrong or that that wasn't a factor or anything, but that it's simply one piece of evidence to consider.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

The only thing about that is that Marlyand still had a rather strong southern identity by the mid century. Some people dismiss the fact that the state joined both the SGA and the SLC in the 30s and 40s, but that definitely, in my mind at least, speaks to how a lot of people in the state thought during that time. We can't look at events in mid-twentieth century Maryland through a 21st Century lens. I'm not saying you're wrong or that that wasn't a factor or anything, but that it's simply one piece of evidence to consider.

George Wallace won the Maryland Democratic primary in 1972. Of course Wallace also won Michigan. But it still may count for something.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

George Wallace won the Maryland Democratic primary in 1972. Of course Wallace also won Michigan. But it still may count for something.

There's a difference between trending southern (and voting trends are not always so good, particularly considering that the South did not vote as uniformly then as it does today*) and actually identifying with the South. When you're an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Conference (1947 to 2010) and a member of the Southern Governors' Association (1934 to the present day), it's a bit tough to argue that those are not expressions of southern identity. I mean, you can argue that it doesn't mean anything until the cows come home, but it's a silly argument, imo.

*South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas, for example, voted for Jack Kennedy in 1960 alongside Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Connecticut. The prospect of these states ever voting the same again in a presidential election seems farfetched to say the least (regardless of whether a southern Dem is on the ticket or not). Today, these states seem so ideologically far apart, but back then, any ideological divides didn't always manifest in presidential elections.

The electoral map we're so used to seeing on election night (with MD to ME being consistently blue) has only been in place since 1992.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

There's a difference between trending southern (and voting trends are not always so good, particularly considering that the South did not vote as uniformly then as it does today*) and actually identifying with the South. When you're an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Conference (1947 to 2010) and a member of the Southern Governors' Association (1934 to the present day), it's a bit tough to argue that those are not expressions of southern identity. I mean, you can argue that it doesn't mean anything until the cows come home, but it's a silly argument, imo.

*South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas, for example, voted for Jack Kennedy in 1960 alongside Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Connecticut. The prospect of these states ever voting the same again in a presidential election seems farfetched to say the least (regardless of whether a southern Dem is on the ticket or not). Today, these states seem so ideologically far apart, but back then, any ideological divides didn't always manifest in presidential elections.

The electoral map we're so used to seeing on election night (with MD to ME being consistently blue) has only been in place since 1992.

Um, I never argued being part of the SLC or the SGA weren't "Southern" qualities, nor that they are more or less important facts to consider than state voters choosing the guy that has this quote on his resume:

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

I trying to meet you in the middle here, and election returns are a factor that can be viewed at a state-level to get a feel for how a state "as a whole" is trending. How strongly you think voting for Wallace correlates with the "South" is an open question, but I think you would agree a candidate with the contemporary version of Wallace's resume wouldn't stand a chance in Maryland 2013.

[marlinfshr]

I went to school in PG county in the 70's and 80's. I had always been accustomed to MD being called mid-Atlantic, along with DE and VA. I learned it in school as well.