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View Poll Results: Was Maryland ever a southern state?
Yes, it was once southern 26 83.87%
No, it was never southern 5 16.13%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-28-2014, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
But even then, I could say that the state had characteristics of north and south, and was never either. What evidence is there that Maryland was a part of the South?
If you find that the traits present in the area under review cluster with two regions, say the North and the South, you could conclude that the area represents a grade or transitional area between two distinct regions that strongly group with each other when the specified criteria are examined.

A better next step would be to take your analysis to a county level to see if you can track the level of gradation in these smaller geographic units; meaning, do the counties further south group more naturally with their southern neighbors while the counties to the north group more naturally with their neighbors to the north? Or do all jurisdictions in the state naturally cluster more closely with each other than they do to any area outside of the state's political borders?
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
If you find that the traits present in the area under review cluster with two regions, say the North and the South, you could conclude that the area represents a grade or transitional area between two distinct regions that strongly group with each other when the specified criteria are examined.

A better next step would be to take your analysis to a county level to see if you can track the level of gradation in these smaller geographic units; meaning, do the counties further south group more naturally with their southern neighbors while the counties to the north group more naturally with their neighbors to the north? Or do all jurisdictions in the state naturally cluster more closely with each other than they do to any area outside of the state's political borders?
But how does that answer the question of what the state's regional identity was?

For example, 40% of Marylanders said that their "community was in the South" in 1999/2000. That tells you something about the state's regional identity then, but not much about its identity in 1950 or 1900. Presumably, the same question would have yielded a different result before the transplant invasion of the 70s and 80s, but we don't for sure that that would be the case.

In the 1940s, linguists placed much of the state within the southern dialect boundary. But does that really mean it was southern? Are southern accents necessarily a sign of being southern?

Then Maryland joined both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association. But Puerto Rico joined in 1961. So that can't really be taken as evidence that the state ever had a southern identity.

So how do we know?
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
But how does that answer the question of what the state's regional identity was?

For example, 40% of Marylanders said that their "community was in the South" in 1999/2000. That tells you something about the state's regional identity then, but not much about its identity in 1950 or 1900. Presumably, the same question would have yielded a different result before the transplant invasion of the 70s and 80s, but we don't for sure that that would be the case.

In the 1940s, linguists placed most of the state within the southern dialect boundary. But does that really mean it was southern? Are southern accents necessarily a sign of being southern?

Then Maryland joined both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association. But Puerto Rico joined in 1961. So that can't really be taken as evidence that the state ever had a southern identity.

So how do we know?
Self-ID could be tracked through time by looking at newspapers and private correspondences. The data would be harder to find and less reliable, but would still exist.

I think you are playing a semantic game. If so, then the definition of everything is only what people decide it to be That is pretty much what a "definition" is, a commonly excepted meaning for a word or phrase.

Taken to its logical conclusion, most semantic games will end with nothing existing in language that has any tangible connection to the outside world except in the minds of the debaters......which is actually true. I could call Maryland part of the Yudinia region, a construct that I have defined, delimited, and researched and I don't feel like sharing that definition with others.

Instead of playing "what is the meaning of is" game, we could actually discuss the traits that people in every day life use to naturally group people into collective identities and apply them to Maryland, in whole or as distinct regions or counties. This course of action would come as close as objectively possible to defining what other parts of the United States are most culturally similar to the land contained within Maryland's borders, today or yesterday.
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Self-ID could be tracked through time by looking at newspapers and private correspondences. The data would be harder to find and less reliable, but would still exist.
This is more or less what I'm talking about...documentary evidence. Not just "my aunt Junebug said...", but instead sources that place the state in the American South. To your knowledge, was Maryland placed in the American South?
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Old 08-28-2014, 03:52 PM
 
320 posts, read 446,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
**The question is not whether Maryland is currently a southern state**

The question is whether Maryland was historically a southern state.
Yeah they had slaves. But Maryland didn't secede. Didn't New York have slaves?
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by SawBoi View Post
Yeah they had slaves. But Maryland didn't secede. Didn't New York have slaves?
I never mentioned slavery.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:11 PM
 
2,697 posts, read 2,797,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
This is more or less what I'm talking about...documentary evidence. Not just "my aunt Junebug said...", but instead sources that place the state in the American South. To your knowledge, was Maryland placed in the American South?
In McPhersons The Battlecry of Freedom He consistently refers to Maryland (along with Virginia) as part of 'The Upper South' Pennsylvania is referred to as 'The Lower North'
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidValleyDad View Post
In McPhersons The Battlecry of Freedom He consistently refers to Maryland (along with Virginia) as part of 'The Upper South' Pennsylvania is referred to as 'The Lower North'
One source? Big deal.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,645,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
This is more or less what I'm talking about...documentary evidence. Not just "my aunt Junebug said...", but instead sources that place the state in the American South. To your knowledge, was Maryland placed in the American South?
You will learn as much from Aunt Junebug about her home, her identity, and her region as you will from any "expert." The "expert" in these matters gathers the evidence of what all the Aunt Junebugs in an area cook, how they talk, what cultural artifacts are present in how they do the wash, or addresses their neighbors, or who they considers kin and why.

Remember patterns are just collections of individual anecdotes that cluster together, which is why is unwise to dismiss individual accounts out of hand, they are the backbone of research into self-identity and thus regionalism.

The North vs. South divide wasn't viewed in the past as we view it today. Southerners were as much defined by their self-identity to their state first, any larger association second, even as the idea of American nationalism began to take hold (not coincidentally our "nationalist war" to unify our country around a centralized government and common identity was nearly simultaneous with efforts to unify Germany and Italy, as well as Napoleon III's efforts to promote nationalism in France by eradicating local patois in favor of standard French, road building, starting schools, etc.)

So, if newspapers or formal academic work is what you will accept as evidence, it would interesting to see what you find. In the hindsight of 21st century history, the Maryland of yesterday has been recognized as Southern, at least in part, because of political history, plantation agriculture, persistence of slavery up to the Civil War. We have also been called a border state because of Northern cultural influences on the counties that border the Mason-Dixon line and our mixed allegiance during the Civil War.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,646 posts, read 24,888,177 times
Reputation: 11220
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
So, if newspapers or formal academic work is what you will accept as evidence, it would interesting to see what you find. In the hindsight of 21st century history, the Maryland of yesterday has been recognized as Southern, at least in part, because of political history, plantation agriculture, persistence of slavery up to the Civil War. We have also been called a border state because of Northern cultural influences on the counties that border the Mason-Dixon line and our mixed allegiance during the Civil War.
Huh? How could it be a border state and a southern state at the same time?
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