White Flight in Bowie?! (Crofton, Laurel: 2010, rent, houses)

[Bigbluelandrover]

Well you are from the Midwest so I understand you 100%. I expected better choices when I came here.Right now it seems like VA has the best options and even then you have certain areas to be leery of. I have family in Bowie and my issue is not a racial one but I do want the diversity in the schools too. I lived in a lilly white suburb and I noticed that my kids were coming home with some strange opinions of themselves--I had to really work on those things. The world is not all black or all white so I hope someone WILL address the White Flight problem. I really wanted this house I saw in Laurel until I checked out the schools (Middle/High) Ugh...it wasn't the scores, it was the fighting and school violence that turned me off. As expensive as these junky houses are-why shouldn't one be picky especially when you pay all these high taxes (esp in MD!). Property values are an issue too.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by Skapov

That is true that no one really tackled the issue of White Flight, and being that we're an interracial couple, I highly value diversity in the true meaning of the word. Just as I do not want my children attending schools that are 95% white, it also bothers me to think of my children attending schools that are 95% black as are many of those in Prince Georges County. In Fairfax County you often get more of a mix, and many schools are 20% Asian and/or 20% Hispanic, and so despite having only 5% Black or so, you've got that diversity there. I am trying hard to convince myself to stay in Prince Georges and raise my family here, I am leaning strongly towards Bowie, but then people like co-workers give me stern warnings about potentially declining property values and say "well you had better hope you really WILL be happy with the schools, because should you change your mind in 5yrs, you may not be able to sell". My baby is still some years away from being school-aged, but what scares me is that the schools will deterioate if lower-income people takeover Bowie, and then I'll be stuck wishing I had chosen Fairfax County from the start.

Thank you all for the insight, but buying a home for the 1st time is pretty scary, and they say LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION, so I just want to get this thing right.

Well, believe it or not, PG County is not really the best example of White Flight. Of course PG was majority white, up until the 1980s. But it was also still very rural with lots of woods and farms. Thus there was less housing stock than in the other DC burbs.

Like many places, developers bought farms and built housing developments. As this process kicked into high gear, two things also happened. The older generation of PG died off. And civil rights gains culminated in many blacks enterering the middle class and buying homes. PG was thus the inevitable place for a black suburb to emerge.

Now sure, some whites probably freaked out. But it was mostly blacks achieving a new status. Not a bad thing.

As for schools, IMHO I would ignore the diversity goal. Not that its a bad thing, but most of the USA and certainly this area is by default diverse. Concentrate on what school will deliver the best education for your kids. They are going to meet plenty of diverse people no matter where they are so no need to force it.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[trying2moveup]

Originally Posted by Skapov

That is true that no one really tackled the issue of White Flight, and being that we're an interracial couple, I highly value diversity in the true meaning of the word. Just as I do not want my children attending schools that are 95% white, it also bothers me to think of my children attending schools that are 95% black as are many of those in Prince Georges County. In Fairfax County you often get more of a mix, and many schools are 20% Asian and/or 20% Hispanic, and so despite having only 5% Black or so, you've got that diversity there. I am trying hard to convince myself to stay in Prince Georges and raise my family here, I am leaning strongly towards Bowie, but then people like co-workers give me stern warnings about potentially declining property values and say "well you had better hope you really WILL be happy with the schools, because should you change your mind in 5yrs, you may not be able to sell". My baby is still some years away from being school-aged, but what scares me is that the schools will deterioate if lower-income people takeover Bowie, and then I'll be stuck wishing I had chosen Fairfax County from the start.

Thank you all for the insight, but buying a home for the 1st time is pretty scary, and they say LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION, so I just want to get this thing right.

Well, I think there are a lot of good opinions on this thread and board in general. It's true that my first initial posts were very critical of PG and the schools and at the time I worked there, it was bad. In 4 years I had 2 superintendents - that is not good!!! Things in the county were not good. I'm happy to see that things are turning around in the school system in particular because as it has been mentioned, PG taxes are higher than MoCo and when I think of property taxes, the first thing I think of are schools (though I know they pay for other services as well that are very needed). Not that money solves problems (notice how we are throwing it at the banking crisis and Berhnake is still on the TV begging for more $ and a new plan every other day??) but you should be getting some quality return on your investment.

As far as this area, buying - reselling - and future property values. THis area is never going to experience the swings of other parts of the nation (Nev, Ca, Az, etc) because the federal government is the number ONE employer around here and govt just keeps on getting bigger and more bloated. . .. there was always be jobs here they pay fairly well. Not to mention the technology corridors of MoCo and No Va. Your house values are declining but if you expect them to drop to where a 500K house is now selling for 200K, I really honestly don't think that will ever happen around here. There are too many people making money to buy what they want, when they see it, and not have to worry about the price and whether they are getting the deal of the century. Because of this, you are going to see PLENTY OF OVERPRICED CRAP (and way overpriced new construction). That is part of the reason we waited 8 years to buy a SFH from a TH. My husband was almost stroking out looking at houses and seeing how much it cost for absolute pieces of s**t, to be blunt, and thinking how insane this whole area is in the housing arena.

Another thought is that we will never again experience the run up in appreciation that we did in the early 2000s. Those days are forever gone because all those crazy we're-giving-away-money-for-free programs are gone and they ain't coming back. So some people are going to 1) make money when they sell, but maybe not the crazy figures some did that sold at the height of the boom) 2) break even 3) lose money. These scenarios occur even during "normal" markets.

We bought our home and offered less than list; it appraised at the list price - thus some "instant equity." However, we know full well that in 6 months that "equity" will more than likely be all "gone." It is hard to buy knowing that you are going to more than likely going to be losing money on paper but you shouldn't hedge and try to time the market.

The number one thought on my mind, ironically, when we bought our house in Laurel was "are we going to be able to sell it in the future because of the school system here?" because exactly the attitudes that you see on this board. Then I really really thought about it and thought, "Well geez, here we are with 2 kids and we really think this house is a fit for us" and someone out there in the future will think the same thing for you. There is a buyer out there for every house, just like the saying says there is someone for everyone (or something like that!). Buy what feels right for you. And I agree with the poster about the diversity issue - there is enough around here that you don' thave to worry about trying to find it in schools necessary.

White Flight - yup. It happened. Is it still happening? I really don't know. I know in Laurel when I walk around (I'm white) I'd say I'm in the minority. But I also see plenty of white people. I don't know about Bowie or other places.

I'd say it occurred mainly when the DC schools were court ordered to bus students from DC into the suburbs (I think this was back in the 60s/70s). They mainly, if not exclusively, went to PG county. THen the whites started to leave. However, it is also correct that many middle to upper middle class black families started purchasing homes in PG and it became the wealthiest prodominantly black county in the U.S.

[Camden Northsider]

I've never been to Bowie, but I used its Census stats in a sociology project for my senior seminar. From its stats, it seems to be a pretty wealthy community, and as to the "white flight" inquiry, you may find this interesting - according to (primarily) US census bureau and "sperling's best places" crime risk data, ZIP code 20721 is 83.1% Black, has an Average Household Income of $106,390, very low crime risk (as does 20715 but 20721's stats are better), and pretty high average property values. Bowie's other ZIP code- 20715, is 80.1% white, average household income is only $83,010, and the homes in this ZIP code sell for a lot less on average - and they have a higher crime risk. So it seems that if you need to be worried about anything in this community, you should be worried about "black flight".

My study was a few years back, so I double checked to see if these numbers changed at all from the year of my census #s and it looks like they're all still pretty close to being the same (except a decline in overall housing values if I'm not mistaken but the predominantly black ZIP code still seems to valuate a lot higher): 20721 and 20715. Good luck with your decision-

[Bigbluelandrover]

trying
My co-worker lives in the historic area of Laurel and loves it. They are a white yuppy couple but they are pulling the son out of public so he can attend private schools in middle and high school. Most of the neighborhood does that. Do you know anything about Laurel High? I did not like what I saw on Greatschools.net about the fighting or the scores, the middle school did not look good either but maybe there is more to the overall picture.

Camden-that is great research. I think by design it is hard to really "flight" anyplace and be within a reasonable distance from work. Sure there are people out in WV, PA and far southern MD that perhaps had that mentality but I see more people here living in mixed neighborhoods then I saw back in Cincy.

[trying2moveup]

Big Blue,
Laurel HS is not good. And from what I understand from when I worked in PG and also from another former roomie whose husband actually taught at Laurel High within the last 5 years, the administration there is very weak. There is no direction nor discipline from the top and therefore, the school is in the hands of the disruptive portion of the study body. He was a first year teacher and bless his heart, stuck out the first year but then quit. He had no support from admin in dealing from the troublemakers - as a first year teacher he was too intimidated to stand up for himself and get the association in to help him get the support he needed.

I can tell you now that if we are here in 13 years my girls will NOT be going to Laurel High unless it has completely turned around. It is a situation that my hubby and I will closely monitor. I worry more about middle and high, especially middle school, because THAT is when the influence of the friends overrides most of the influence from the parents.

They have 2 years until they hit even elementary so we are closely watching things but yes, if it needs to happen, they will go to private school and I will go back to work to pay for it.

[Bigbluelandrover]

Thanks Trying. I think we are just going to rent a SFH in Kensington or close to it.

[Skapov]

Trying2MoveUp, I like your strategy! My husband & I are weighing the same thing, i.e. if we stay in PG County we'd probably give the elementary schools a try but then switch the kids to private school once they get to Middle/High school. Right now, we only have one baby, so I'm still gonna keep my fingers crossed that the schools will get MUCH better by the time he's ready to begin in 4 or 5yrs.

[kjg1963]

Originally Posted by trying2moveup

Big Blue,
Laurel HS is not good. And from what I understand from when I worked in PG and also from another former roomie whose husband actually taught at Laurel High within the last 5 years, the administration there is very weak. There is no direction nor discipline from the top and therefore, the school is in the hands of the disruptive portion of the study body. He was a first year teacher and bless his heart, stuck out the first year but then quit. He had no support from admin in dealing from the troublemakers - as a first year teacher he was too intimidated to stand up for himself and get the association in to help him get the support he needed.

I can tell you now that if we are here in 13 years my girls will NOT be going to Laurel High unless it has completely turned around. It is a situation that my hubby and I will closely monitor. I worry more about middle and high, especially middle school, because THAT is when the influence of the friends overrides most of the influence from the parents.

They have 2 years until they hit even elementary so we are closely watching things but yes, if it needs to happen, they will go to private school and I will go back to work to pay for it.

Laurel High is really bad. My son attended 9th and partially 10th there. During 10th grade he was in an English class with a 1st year teacher that the students actually made cry because of their behavior. They really took advantage of her. My son is very quiet and was a good student and he felt bad for her. He started skipping school because this particular class was stressing him out. The whole atmosphere of the school (chaotic and rowdy) was getting to him. I finally made an appointment with an Administrator to see if he could be transferred to a different class. While I was meeting with her, she had student aids walking in and out and sitting behind us listening to everything. My son was an A/B student and on varsity baseball. This administrator told me "Well, he'll be 16 in a couple of months and if he wants to quit school, that's up to him. We are not going to give him special treatment just because he doesn't like a class." Here was a good kid with no behavioral or academic problems, and they had no desire to save the kid from destroying his life. However, when I was in the office waiting for my meeting, there were kids yelling, wrestling, interrupting office staff while they were on the phone or talking to parents. It was an unbelievable mad house. Not one word of admonishment to any of them. Luckily my daughter got into Roosevelt. I believe she might have been OK in Laurel because she's more outgoing then my son, but I think the quiet, shy kids have a harder time dealing with the chaotic atmosphere.

[RaisedWell]

Originally Posted by kjg1963

Laurel High is really bad. My son attended 9th and partially 10th there. During 10th grade he was in an English class with a 1st year teacher that the students actually made cry because of their behavior. They really took advantage of her. My son is very quiet and was a good student and he felt bad for her. He started skipping school because this particular class was stressing him out. The whole atmosphere of the school (chaotic and rowdy) was getting to him. I finally made an appointment with an Administrator to see if he could be transferred to a different class. While I was meeting with her, she had student aids walking in and out and sitting behind us listening to everything. My son was an A/B student and on varsity baseball. This administrator told me "Well, he'll be 16 in a couple of months and if he wants to quit school, that's up to him. We are not going to give him special treatment just because he doesn't like a class." Here was a good kid with no behavioral or academic problems, and they had no desire to save the kid from destroying his life. However, when I was in the office waiting for my meeting, there were kids yelling, wrestling, interrupting office staff while they were on the phone or talking to parents. It was an unbelievable mad house. Not one word of admonishment to any of them. Luckily my daughter got into Roosevelt. I believe she might have been OK in Laurel because she's more outgoing then my son, but I think the quiet, shy kids have a harder time dealing with the chaotic atmosphere.

Great post and this is sooo true of a lot of other public high schools. The greatest hurdle is the huge discipline problem that a lot of them have. I can say for sure that I am pleased with Charles Herbert Flowers High where my sons attend. It is hard for a child to remain the way you raised them in such environments. My children tell me all the time that you either "go hard" or punk out and no one wants to be known as soft. I feel very sorry for our kids these days. Going to school is like being in a war. I have to admit that I have seen some very strong discipline coming from the administrators at their school. I wished I had seen it at another high school where I taught in this county. I might have remained there.