White Flight in Bowie?! (Potomac, Glen Burnie: hair salon, foreclosure, violent crime)

[RaisedWell]

Originally Posted by bowian

No, that's just not true. The high-income areas do not have consistently excellent schools in PG. I used to live in Upper Marlboro. Love the area, but I certainly did NOT want my children to attend James Madison middle school, which would have been their zone middle school had we remained in UM. Madison Middle did NOT make adequate yearly progress in 2008. The school location is near a variety of middle-income housing, including houses that sold for over $500K. I compared Madison's math scores to the scores of the following schools: Benjamin Tasker in Bowie, Samuel Ogle in Bowie, and Ernest Everett Just in Lake Arbor/Mitchellville. Only Ernest Everett Just scored lower than Madison. I believe Madison is on the State watch list for possible takeover if I'm not mistaken.

Then I compared Mattaponi Elementary to the other UM-area ele. schools (Melwood and Rosaryville), Glenn Dale (my kids' zone school), and the Bowie and Mitchelliville schools for math scores. The lowest scores (in the 70s) were for the UM elementaries and Glenn Dale. Again, ALL those areas have lots of homes that go for $500k and up. Consistently, the Bowie and Mithcellville schools score better, but there are plenty of outside the beltway schools that don't do as well as you would expect. And quite a few inside the beltway elementaries did pretty well score-wise. All this information is from the PGCPS website.

Someone asked if the low scores are because of the black kids. Of course not. All of the Bowie and Mitchellville schools have black students. Some are majority black. My take is that the answer to low scores is threefold: the schools have trouble reaching and teaching low-income kids (on free and reduced lunch) and special ed kids; which goes to reason #2 -- bad school culture (trickling from bad administrators down); and lack of parental involvement.

The schools in upper income areas often have a significant number of free and reduced lunch students attending. If you can't reach the impoverished kids and they don't test well, that will bring the scores down. The impoverished kids can learn, but you have to know how to reach them and teach them early in the game.

This is the real deal:
It's not the free and reduced lunch students bring scores down in the schools of the "affluent". Please know what you are talking about before you start posting. It's not the special ed population either. As a matter of fact, these populations have increased scores at many schools county-wide. There is a whole 'nother thing going on in affluent black suburbia. It's called poor parenting. Most of these parents are not involved in their children's lives. Most of them living in these poorly planned communities of McMansions cannot afford their super-sized homes unless they work over-time/double-time. You cannot get their attention or get them into the schools unless you suspend their child or something else happens that they want to go overboard complaining about.

I know what I'm talking about because I'm in the trenches everyday.

[Jaded]

Test scores mean NOTHING!!

Especially with the advent of "No Child Left Behind." I remember my niece being a "poor" student, earning low grades, etc. Turns out the poor girl was dealing with a very traumatic experience. When it came time for her to take her high school exam, she passed with no problems. Meanwhile, she knew of other classmates who failed the exam, but had earned higher "test scores" during the school year.

I'm not degrading nor defending PG County schools. What I know is that parents who care about their children's education often instill strong academic ambitions in their kids. Regardless of their incomes or their home prices. When a parent understands that education is a life-long committment that should be respected and appreciated, then more often than not, their children understand this too.

So, when people generalize the "wealthy" areas of PG County, I have to laugh. Do you know all of these families? Are you assuming that just because a community with $500K homes is around schools that the schools are going to fare well? Why? The schools were there before the wealth was I assume.

Consider this: Some of the best universities in the USA are surrounded by the worst neighborhoods. And, many, many people who are of means send their children to private schools (even if the public schools are good).

Have a Merry Christmas everyone!

[bowian]

Originally Posted by RaisedWell

This is the real deal:
It's not the free and reduced lunch students bring scores down in the schools of the "affluent". Please know what you are talking about before you start posting. It's not the special ed population either. As a matter of fact, these populations have increased scores at many schools county-wide. There is a whole 'nother thing going on in affluent black suburbia. It's called poor parenting. Most of these parents are not involved in their children's lives. Most of them living in these poorly planned communities of McMansions cannot afford their super-sized homes unless they work over-time/double-time. You cannot get their attention or get them into the schools unless you suspend their child or something else happens that they want to go overboard complaining about.

I know what I'm talking about because I'm in the trenches everyday.

Nope. I stand by my statements, and I am convinced I know what I am talking about. And I will post as I wish. At my daughter's school in 2007, the school did not make AYP. The only group that did not pass was the special ed children. They did pass in 2008, so something was different. If uninvolved parenting was the sole reason, then I seriously doubt those parents suddenly became involved in 2008.

All the "affluent" parents I know in my community and the next community over are involved with their children. Many of them send their kids to private school, however. The ones who don't seem to be as involved are the less affluent. Is it poor parenting? Could be. I have heard educational experts say the same in terms of teaching and reaching low-income students.

Furthermore, as I said before, the low-income children can learn and pass the tests. I saw good scores for some Baltimore elementary schools where 92 percent of the kids were on free and reduced lunch. And one recent study indicated that even poor kids with uninvolved parents can succeed in school. So I guess is that being able to reach and teach them goes a long way towards their success in school. PG needs to learn how to do it consistently so ALL kids will be successful.

So, sorry, can't lay this on affluent black suburbia this time.

Three more things:

1. I'm not blaming free and reduced lunch kids or special ed kids for not making. But the PG school system has blamed them. I blame the school system; you have to educate everyone appropriately, and not everyone learns the same way. Raisedwell, you sound like a very good teacher. Not all of them are like you.

2. Teachers blame parents and administrators -- and students. Parents blame teachers and administrators. Administrators blame students and teachers. When are we all going to work together and stop being the enemy?

3. Test scores may not prove much, but politically and psychologically, they mean a lot.

[ateo]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

I've never been to Bowie, but I used its Census stats in a sociology project for my senior seminar. From its stats, it seems to be a pretty wealthy community, and as to the "white flight" inquiry, you may find this interesting - according to (primarily) US census bureau and "sperling's best places" crime risk data, ZIP code 20721 is 83.1% Black, has an Average Household Income of $106,390, very low crime risk (as does 20715 but 20721's stats are better), and pretty high average property values. Bowie's other ZIP code- 20715, is 80.1% white, average household income is only $83,010, and the homes in this ZIP code sell for a lot less on average - and they have a higher crime risk. So it seems that if you need to be worried about anything in this community, you should be worried about "black flight".

My study was a few years back, so I double checked to see if these numbers changed at all from the year of my census #s and it looks like they're all still pretty close to being the same (except a decline in overall housing values if I'm not mistaken but the predominantly black ZIP code still seems to valuate a lot higher): 20721 and 20715. Good luck with your decision-

Yea, that's what you need to be worried about in Maryland - all those damn rowdy whites mucking up the peaceful black neighborhoods.

Spoken like someone that has never stepped foot in the D.C. area.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by Skapov

Everybody has their own world view, and "black orientation" means feeling like an authentic member of the African-American community, and being proud of ones heritage and roots! For example, I remember last year my boss being "surprised" when I mentioned being off for the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday (a company-wide holiday), because to him it doesn't mean anything and is just like being off for Veterans Day or President's Day (you know how people mix up them holidays). But for a Black Person, we know and respect that holiday, it means a lot to us to know about Black History and to pay attention to what is relevant as far as news and events that concern Black Americans.

I don't want my child to completely assimilate into the "Mainstream", I want them to treasure black traditions and have black friends and date/marry other black people etc.! Barack Obama could have assimilated, but he chose to marry a black woman, have black children, and live his life as a black man. I want my children to do the same, and this is why I currently live in PG County and had initially wanted to settle here, because it's majority-black with solid Middle Class families. Now the schools...that's another issue .

Well, nothing wrong with any of that. Personally, I think it important for anyone to be in touch with their roots. You cannot know where you are going unless you know where you have been.

Just some semantics. I think most whites, your boss notwithstanding, approve of MLK and having his birthday as a national holiday. People may have gripe here and there, but nobody with any reasonable level of sanity wants to reclaim Jim Crow.

And as for "assimilating into the mainstream", I tend to think the black folks are a huge component of the "mainstream". America would not be America without them.

Anyway, good luck.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by Maxchus

This is the first time I've heard of Burtonsville being described as a low income area. I know people who live there and I would describe most of it as being middle class.

My brother lives there. Burtonsville and Montgomery Village are the 2 zip codes in MoCo with the lowest average housing price. He perceives it as a high crime area - not a duck-from-bullets high crime but be-careful-to-lock-your-doors-and-park-your-car-under-the-streetlight kind of high crime. He currently sends his kids to private school that is run by his church.

I live in Montgomery Village and our neighborhood is pretty much similar, although demographically our neighborhood is more Hispanic/Asian and his is more Black.

[Camden Northsider]

[quote=ateo;6742879]Yea, that's what you need to be worried about in Maryland - all those damn rowdy whites mucking up the peaceful black neighborhoods.

Spoken like someone that has never stepped foot in the D.C. area.[/quot

RaisedWell, just curious - how are the experiences you're speaking to in affluent black suburbia any different than those found in affluent white suburbia?

[Wowalltheusernamesaretake]

Well, since everyone feels the need to address the race of their family- I will too. We are a hundred percent black family.
I feel strongly to have a mix of both races in whatever school my children goes to- however, I will not comprise the education that my children recieve from school. If I do the research and find that I can only afford X county and X county had all white schools and it is a good school vs Z county has a mixed school and bad schools... they are going to X county schools.... Here is my reasoning... having a mix in race interaction is highly important BUT the good news is... you live in Maryland... you can travel to extra-curricular activities in areas that do have mixed races... to get them interacting with other races.
I grew up in Bellevue (Omaha), Nebraska... as you can image... pretty much all white... never had a black teacher... I can count the number of blacks students I had. But I decide to go to the "urban" part of town to interact with "my people-- black people (sounds like I'm from a village... sorry)" So I feel that I had a balance with race interaction. But I will touch on one part.... Having a black teacher is important... even if it is an all white school- hopefully you can find a black teacher there... it is a good role model for children to see that.

Ok so about PG county... I love the Bowie area... from appearence... I love the Crofton area also.
Maryland overall is expensive... the areas that are less expensive- there is a reason... crime, rural etc
likewise, areas that are expensive have a reason... good commute time, lower crime, better schools etc.
You have to decide if having a mcmansion is so important that you have to settle for less in other areas such as the school and crime
or can you settle for a TH in a better area and have better schools etc.
But you must realize... most counties are going to have their downfalls. Most cities will too. I do think Bowie is one of the best cities in PG... I would say it is the exception for PG.
But what do I know I'm just 20 years old girl from Omaha, NE... but I do have a Bachelor's and a halfway done with a Master's... So I guess that gives me some room to speak my opinion.
Good luck with your search- I hope you make an educated and well-researched decision.
Keep in mind- good parenting can always counter poor schools!

[melodiforyou]

we lived in Bowie for the last 3 years. Being an Indian family, i could see some reasons for the "white flight". i think its just a Big city - suburban phenomenon. when we were moving to US 3 years ago from UK, we were looking at safe and affordable communities in PG county, commutable to cheverly. and bowie came up as a very good choice, so we moved in here. the same must be happening to a lot of people. as Washington and most of Virginia, Montgomery county etc are becoming very unaffordable to the professionals moving to the area, a lot of people are opting for smaller, more affordable, yet safe suburban places like bowie, attracting a very diverse ethnicity. from what i can see around me, it is fast becoming a slice of the world. there are fast growing Asian, Indian communities, and also carebian and spanish communities. so it is not just african american population that is replacing caucasian white population.
my children attend Whitehall elementary school, which is a brilliant school by the way, and i can see a white majority students there, with all other races present noticeably.
just my 2 cents

[TuborgP]

Originally Posted by RaisedWell

This is the real deal:
It's not the free and reduced lunch students bring scores down in the schools of the "affluent". Please know what you are talking about before you start posting. It's not the special ed population either. As a matter of fact, these populations have increased scores at many schools county-wide. There is a whole 'nother thing going on in affluent black suburbia. It's called poor parenting. Most of these parents are not involved in their children's lives. Most of them living in these poorly planned communities of McMansions cannot afford their super-sized homes unless they work over-time/double-time. You cannot get their attention or get them into the schools unless you suspend their child or something else happens that they want to go overboard complaining about.

I know what I'm talking about because I'm in the trenches everyday.

If you are in the trenches everyday then you are being exposed to a continuous flow of testing data. Now pray tell are you saying that the testing data shows Free and Reduced Meal Students performing as well as their non FARM counterparts? If so then link it for others to see. In addition you are arguing apples and oranges. FARM is a economic classification and you are arguing with behavioral characteristics. They are different ya know. Perhaps the issue is neither economic status or a failure of parental support. Have you considered that the instructional quality as measured by teacher competence might not be as great? Perhaps it is that lack of competence that is resulting in something other then stellar teacher performance?