Maryland, My Maryland - State Heritage? (Baltimore, Dundalk: home, college, military)
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I'd say Maryland has a split personality. Plenty of "Northern" types in the DC area. But one can't deny the Southern history of the state or the fact that a lot of people in rural Maryland probably would mark themselves as Southern.
I myself feel like a Northerner, since I grew up in Montgomery County and DC.
Folks have the same debate about DE that we are having about MD. I remember a Senator Joe Biden saying that Delaware would have loved to secede with the rest of the South, but couldn't.
Maybe so, but I would think you would find very few Delaware natives who would claim their state as Southern. By the time of the Civil War Delaware had virtually given up on slavery, much like Southern New Jersey. The residents of Delaware, the vast majority of whom live in New Castle County, are so culturally tied to Philadelphia that the state is almost universally considered Northern. Wilmington is basically a mini-Baltimore, which itself is basically a mini-Philadelphia. The CB's designation is prob. all that's left of DE's Southerness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyserSoze
If "The South" = "Dixieland", then we can add that the Southwest US = Mexico, Russia = Soviet Union, and Germany = Nazi Germany.
I don't really follow. Dixie is the name given to the cultural South, particularly the Confederacy. Here's a map that shows the ratio of concentrations of businesses with the term "Dixie" in their title against those with "American":
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyserSoze
Plenty of rowhouses in southern cities.
Apart from maybe Richmond (which is clearly Southern), I don't know of any Southern cities with the plethora of rowhomes found in DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia etc. I remember once seeing an in-depth article in a magazine somewhere on rowhomes. It was pretty interesting, even mentioning how the stone (marble iirc) for the steps in Baltimore were mined from a nearby quarry. Anyway, it clearly pointed out that rowhomes were a Northeastern thing and focused on DC, Balt, Philly, and NYC.
My stance remains that Maryland is split, but with a decisive tilt towards the North. The only evidence I've seen in favor of Maryland being Southern is related to the past or personal experience/opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but how much weight does that have weight against the very many observable and provable statistics (politics, rowhomes, accents, religion, density, wealth, and even small nuances such as the rowhomes mentioned above) that would tie Maryland to the Northeast region?
The problem with your position Cpterp is that it doesn't hold any credence outside of you and your kind's circle of experience. Just because there are more Northern transplants than natives doesn't change 300 years of history.
To quote myself from a previous thread, 8 out of 10 Montgomery County transplants think MD is like New Jersey. The biggest evidence I can think of to claim MD is a definite Northern State is the fact you call yourself a Marylander.
Maryland was always and still is a border state. Call it 75-25% if you must, but to disregard the opinion and heritage of roughly a quarter of your fellow Marylanders is error. Can we call Maryland a "white state" because there are more whites living here than any other race? My guess is that anyone who makes that assertion will be shouted down as not only incorrect, but prejudice. Stats and majority rules classification works in some areas, person and regional identity isn't one of them.
In regards to Maryland, My Maryland: as a member of the University of Maryland Maryching Band, I can attest to the fact that we play it at all football games, and that most people in the audience and in the band don't remember the words.
If you're from PG County, you don't consider yourself a southerner. If you're from southern Maryland, you probably do.
Technacally ant state below the Mason-Dixon line is concidered part of the South. Maryland is below, hence it is a southern state geographically.
The question of how the people feel is broken down. The areas right around Wash, DC, Prince Georges and Montgomery Counties and Baltimore City and Baltomore County right close to Baltimore City are very liberal. The rest of the state is conservative.
A lot of the people leaning liberal are transplants who have come to the DC area to work for the Government.
Check the voting patterns by county and you will see what I mean.
I don't really follow. Dixie is the name given to the cultural South, particularly the Confederacy.
No it's not. Dixie is a name given to the South during an era of Southern history during the Civil War, by Confederates and Confederate sympathizers. That's it. Though some have and still use it post Civil War-era, and though the word has negative connotations referring to a dark era of Southern history, the term has no bearing on the modern-day South. Unless you think otherwise, tell me that I'm from Dixie, and I'll say "no I'm not", unless the Southwest US still belongs to Mexico, and Germany is still ran by the Nazis. Bottom line is your getting history and perception confused - Dixie does not equal the South.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp
Apart from maybe Richmond (which is clearly Southern), I don't know of any Southern cities with the plethora of rowhomes found in DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia etc.
Go to a small, historical, college town, like Annapolis, St. Mary's City, or any town on the Eastern Shore. That's where they are the most prominent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp
My stance remains that Maryland is split, but with a decisive tilt towards the North. The only evidence I've seen in favor of Maryland being Southern is related to the past or personal experience/opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but how much weight does that have weight against the very many observable and provable statistics (politics, rowhomes, accents, religion, density, wealth, and even small nuances such as the rowhomes mentioned above) that would tie Maryland to the Northeast region?
So you'd rather ignore all my documented, irrefutable facts presented in order to retain your refutable, undocumented opinion? You do realize that makes you look incredibly foolish?
Maybe so, but I would think you would find very few Delaware natives who would claim their state as Southern. By the time of the Civil War Delaware had virtually given up on slavery, much like Southern New Jersey. The residents of Delaware, the vast majority of whom live in New Castle County, are so culturally tied to Philadelphia that the state is almost universally considered Northern. Wilmington is basically a mini-Baltimore, which itself is basically a mini-Philadelphia. The CB's designation is prob. all that's left of DE's Southerness.
In the days before the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, Philadelphia was the major market in the Delmarva Peninsula. Does this mean that the Delmarva isn't Southern, and is more like South Jersey?
The problem with your position Cpterp is that it doesn't hold any credence outside of you and your kind's circle of experience.
With all due respect WSB, what the heck is that supposed to mean?
It appears to me that WSB & cpterp do agree on a few points, namely, that MD is a border state, and that most, but not all, of its counties lean towards the "north." I think a problem arises, however, when we try to characterize the WHOLE state as either northern or southern. We might as well argue whether MD is a male or a female state. Who'll "win" that argument? It really comes down to which region of MD we're talking about, and on that point, there has been fairly consistent agreement.
As to whether lots of transplants change the basic nature of a state, of course they do! Look @ Kosovo, for instance. The Serbs still sentimentally see it as their original homeland, but there is no escaping the fact that it is 90% Albanian. Kosovo is a "done deal." This has happened continuously throughout history, and after it's over, the 'evicted" group always pines for its "lost homeland."
We can either choose to live in the past, or recognize the new reality. Yes, of course MD has some southern history. And yes, there used to be a Mason-Dixon line. But the changing demographics are inescapable. This is why I remarked in an earlier post that the Mason-Dixon line is today little more than a historical fact.
I appreciate that there are places like the eastern shore and southern MD that have elements of the South, and I think those places enrich our state. I wouldn't have it any other way. We'll keep 'em for now.
We can either choose to live in the past, or recognize the new reality. Yes, of course MD has some southern history. And yes, there used to be a Mason-Dixon line. But the changing demographics are inescapable. This is why I remarked in an earlier post that the Mason-Dixon line is today little more than a historical fact.
The problem I have(and what I disagree with) is that people use "Southern" as a euphemism for "substandard", and that "Southerness" or being part of the region only pertains to the evil past in regards to Maryland, both of which are simply not true. The key word here in this topic is heritage. And like it or not, the reality is Maryland's heritage is that of the South. Areas that aren't overrun with non-natives are a testament to that fact. The past is important because it shapes the present and future, and without the past, you have no present or future. Again, simple fact, not "living in the past."
Just because Maryland has changed over time doesn't mean it's no longer part of the region. I believe that places like Central Maryland, Northern Virginia, South Florida, etc. can change over time, and still be part of the South. It's just this notion that some people have, both Southerners and non-Southerners, in that they only want to only talk up the non-native(non-Southern) parts of a state to "becoming part of the Northeast" or what not, as if a Southern state isn't allowed to prosper, have a large non-native population, or be a blue state and have large, dense, urban cities or whatever, otherwise it isn't "Southern" anymore. It's statements loaded with ignorance like those which annoy me.
What I mean Merlander by my comment, is that if you go to suburban Montgomery County and talk to transplants living there you are going to find lots of folks that agree with Cpterp. That is his circle of experience, and while are lots of people living there, they can't monopolize the state's identity.
You are right when you say trying to call Maryland North or South is like trying to say it is male or female. It is a border state. It is not unique in this regard. I bet you find similiar threads in the West Virginia, Kentucky, and Missouri boards as well.
It is funny that you brought up Kosovo. I did in another thread as well. I used the example for the opposite purpose. To a Serb, it will always be Serbia, no amount of demographic change will alter that.
Great post Keyser. I know the feeling of dealing with negative stereotypes of regional identity. My roots in Appalachia go back hundreds of years and I proudly identify myself with the region. Yet I am also a 4th generation college graduate. I have never held a gun let alone fired one. My family has been white collar and town dwellers for over a century. Yet I still am as much a part of my community and in direct continuity with my ancestors as any Wayne, Dale, or Earl. Heritage and identity comes from the inside.
Last edited by westsideboy; 04-04-2010 at 10:01 PM..
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Who'll "win" that argument? It really comes down to which region of MD we're talking about, and on that point, there has been fairly consistent agreement.
