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Yeah NH definitely isnt top of that list. MA has some way more wealthy towns. Also, what does that have to do with why you would want to move there? do you think that makes it a better place to live? doesnt make sense to me.
Anyway, recently moved out MA. Places i've lived in the past longest in descending order are malden, burlington, brattleboro, sutton nh, roxbury, JP, hartford ct, lowell, winooski vt, framingham and casper wy. Moved because of job and COL, but i really like many places in ma and the atmosphere. I also fit in with the people more, im grumpy, independent, and like winters. I also like sutton a lot, i dont like southern NH, there's too many people that are focussed on ma, and more people from ma are moving there now, i feel they take away the nh feel of what it used to be.
For the record, I have never substantially lived outside MA, so I'll list a handful of places where I've spent more than a month, for seasonal jobs etc, where the grass truly did seem greener.
1) Seattle, WA (add Portland, OR too). Gets less rain than Boston, despite the reputation, their rain is almost all in the winter instead of ice and snow. When the sun is out (most of the rest of the year), there is NO humidity, barely any days over 90 degrees, and you look out over clear skies to mindblowing snowcapped mountains in all directions, from the 7,000'+ Olympic Range to the west, to the Cascades and Mt Rainier (14,000'+) to the east/south. Note that those peaks are viewed from roughly sea level in Seattle. It will blow your little New England mind, and the Blue Hills and Mt. Wachusett, or even the Whites, will never seem anything like mountains again. People are laid-back, friendly, and much more removed from the ratrace than in MA. There are independent coffeeshops, bookstores, breweries, and generally unique small businesses everywhere. There is happy hour ($2 microbrews and mixed drinks), and the bus service runs late enough that you can get home after last call, unlike the T. Unfortunately, it has become rather expensive, but certainly cheaper than metro Boston, overall. Both Seattle and Portland have easy access to the wilderness, or at least what feels like the wilderness. Case in point - I can't seem to find any 500-foot-high waterfalls along Route 2, on my commute between gnarly N. Central MA milltowns. Outside Portland? Oh, just drive 15 miles or so - said enormous waterfall nearly hangs right over the interstate.
2) Small cities in the South. Chattanooga, TN; Nashville, TN; Asheville, NC; Charleston, SC; etc. These seem almost as liberal as any city in the north, but the people are MUCH nicer and say hello and make small talk, rather than looking at you like you raped their sister, when all you actually did was accidentally make eye contact on Boston's Red Line. Also, they are better socio-economically and racially integrated than New England cities. In NE, we ghettoize the poor and minorities, and shove them into the outer neighborhoods of Boston, and the Lowells, New Bedfords, Springfields, Fitchburgs, Brocktons, etc, while nearly every small town and suburb (think Millis, Cohasset, Ashburnham, etc) is lily-white and latently racist. The south has a terrible racial past, but in these small liberal cities, people of all walks are visibly working and playing side by side. Even the small towns are somewhat more integrated. Plus, that 1-bedroom apt you pay $1,000+ a month for in metro Boston? Try $300 a month in the south. Plus there's happy hour in the south, illegal in MA, where you pay $1 or $2 and receive in return a mixed drink or a microbrewed beer. Also, the south has an identifiable and delicious regional cuisine, spanning smoked BBQ, fried chicken, pies of all kinds, cajun cuisine. Massachusetts has a million filthy Dunkin' Donuts and.... clam chowder? but chowdah's a little more Maine.... I'm drawing a blank here. I am a Yankee, but the human decency, amazing food, and cheap living I've seen in the south, make me a staunch defender of the region! Keep your politics to yourself and you'll be fine. On the latent racism of New England - don't get me started on how nobody burned a church in Alabama the night Obama was elected, but two racist M@sshole subhumans sure did burn a black church in Springfield, MA!!
3) Anchorage, AK. Obviously not for everybody. The winters in this particular city are, surprisingly, not that harsh coldwise, averaging 22 degrees high for a winter day and much less snow than MA (this all because of proximity to a Pacific Ocean inlet - it's inland Fairbanks where the -40 BS goes on). However, the winters are dark 19 hours a day, so, umm, yeah. What I liked so much, though, about it were the people. Everyone is there for a REASON - very few just HAPPEN to end up in Alaska. Lots of people just HAPPEN to live out their lives in Billerica, or some equivalent boring Boston 'burb, often because of a staunch provincial refusal to even try anywhere else. In Anchorage, you are surrounded by majestic mountains, a vibrant and surprisingly diverse city, majestic wildlife everywhere including your backyard (moose are about as common as squirrels), friendly and interesting people who often just happen to be bush pilots, survivalists, professional dog sledders, musicians, mountain climbers, geologists, wildlife biologists, Deadliest Catch fishermen. You are far more likely to meet some truly fascinating individuals, rather than an office drone who commutes to the 128 corridor. Oh and did I mention there are reindeer hot dogs?
4) Austin, TX. Hot hot hot as hell in the summer! However, little to no humidity, awesome music scene every day (national acts all the time, even Tuesday night, to manic week-long music festivals), $1 microbrews at happy hour, Texas BBQ to eat, amazing restaurants to try, fascinating and creative people to meet both in and out of the ratrace (usually with a foot both in the arts and in said ratrace). So many people are young and nubile, so if you are also young and nubile, you should probably try to get laid or something. It really is a kind of weird place - case in point, every night, over a million bats that live underneath one of the bridges over the river next to downtown, take off and fly away past the high-rises and over the horizon. Overall, it is rather hard to articulate, other than to say that: Austin is a place that is happening NOW.
In short, get the hell out for a spell. I've had to return to MA for family reasons, but I've loved the perspective that traveling to other regions has given me. Luckily, I love my current job in MA too, so that helps. In closing, don't let M@ssholes convince you that there's no world outside of I-495, and that all Southerners are idiots. Don't let Dunkin' Donuts convince you that they sell good coffee. And don't give in to the ratrace mindset - it's okay to take a minute and make small talk with the person next to you at the bar, or across from you on the bus - that's what they do in the REST OF THE COUNTRY - it's only human decency.
You make Mass sound like a complete Hell on Earth, and the rest of the country as Heaven on Earth. Portland, Or is far from perfect dispite all the touristy things you mentioned. This state has under 4 million people and you could fit just about all of New England in it. Oregon is a huge state. Yet it has more poverty, drug types, homelessness and welflare recipients, than you would ever find % wise in Mass. So I would hardly call that a desirable location to live. Mass has several more million people living in it and is far smaller, yet is far more together than Oregon and much of the PNW. Although I would rate the Seattle and Washington as far superior to Portland and Oregon.
I'm sorry you don't care for Mass and I agree Mass has many problems and cons. COL for one. However Im from there and have seen first hand, the rest of the country is no prize either. I was never exposed in all my years in Mass to the social problems in my face every day, that I am exposed to in Oregon. The social problems are an acceptable part of the culture here. From loitering, begging, free speech including swearing and spitting at people, when they don't give you spare change. You can also walk around nude here as long as one is not trying to sexually arouse people. Its a strange state with strange laws. It is obivious why the population is so low. Most Americans could not live here. Just the fact that 10% of one's income goes to Income tax here is bad enough. To support all the welfare recipients and homeless programs
. I would take Mass anyday over Portland, Oregon and its strange population. But I agree with your it is a beautiful area of the country.
. Waterfalls and quick trips out of the city are nice but they don't make a place. People make a place and the mindsets in Portland, don't seem very interested in working and making a living. Say what you want but most New Englanders are hard workers, and you know where you stand with them. They would be ashamed at the amount of freeloaders in this part of the country. I have never seen people with signs begging on streets and stores in Mass, like I see out here. So if this place is more to your liking than Mass, then you should move here. You may find Mass isn't so bad after living elsewhere in America. You can take my place here because I'm leaving this spring. Visiting and living somewhere are two very different experiences.
I grew up in Philly/south Jersey, lived in Pittsburgh, then Cambridge area when I was 20. Left MA three times and came back three times (Santa Fe, NM- no jobs), Bath, Maine- no jobs- and out of the country for a failed public health venture.
I kept coming back to the Cambridge area (now live 25 miles west of it) because I think there are more people like me- not family-minded, maybe feminist, big into reading and thinking and ideas. I like the historical and intellectual background, like driving past Walden Pond every day on my way to work.
I cannot stand humidity. I find the summers here in MA unbearably grey/hazy/humid. I would never live anywhere that was more humid than here.
Geez, even kids here in elementary, middle, and high school aren't allowed to use wikipedia as a reference in the school papers they write... Don't believe everything some unknown author writes.
They also state how the measurements are made, and standard errors:
For information on confidentiality protection, sampling error, nonsampling error, and definitions, see www.census.gov/apsd/techdoc/cps/cpsmar11.pdf.
BTW, data from NH, CT, NJ, MD, AK are not significantly different.
The data from Wiki is old (even the reviewers tagged some of the other related Wiki links indicating that the data needs to be updated.
Actually i think cityguy is thinking of the "average" income, because NH wouldnt be top of that. highest median income is different than the average, but i still have trouble believing that. Without southern Nh though, it would be significantly lower. The wealth is more concentrated there then a lot of other states.
But still, why would that make you want to move there anymore than the next place?
Last edited by Bostonmania; 12-02-2011 at 04:37 PM..
Actually i think cityguy is thinking of the "average" income, because NH wouldnt be top of that. highest median income is different than the average, but i still have trouble believing that. Without southern Nh though, it would be significantly lower. The wealth is more concentrated there then a lot of other states.
But still, why would that make you want to move there anymore than the next place?
Quote:"Actually i think cityguy is thinking of the "average" income, because NH wouldnt be top of that."
You need both median and average (also std deviations) to get an accurate representation of the scenario.
Averages (by themselves) can be very misleading; if a group of people in the sample size make a zillion dollars a year, and everyone else is below the poverty line, then the average is entirely misleading. Including the median as well helps significantly in this case.
Quote:"Without southern Nh though, it would be significantly lower. The wealth is more concentrated there then a lot of other states."
Hmm... Look at CT... most of the wealth is concentrated close to the NY border, as many, many people commute from CT to NYC. This is not that uncommon for any state that has a large economic center close to its borders.
Quote:"But still, why would that make you want to move there anymore than the next place?
Well, (IMHO), I would tend to think that a large area that has an average household income of $1000/mo, (with a reasonable population size/density) just might have some issues with infrastructure, employment, and a few social concerns. Again just my opinion.
So this measurement should not be the deciding factor, but it should come into play to some extent.
Otherwise, why not move to Kiryas Joel, NY (in Orange County)? (poorest town in the nation, population is about 15,000, and 62% of the residents are below the poverty line.
Jimrob, yes, no place is perfect, and I am happy enough living in the Commonwealth. I'm overly-cynical about it, but I don't think it is "Hell on Earth." MA soured for me though, during the housing boom, when I realized that kids of long-established townie families, in many places, couldn't afford to come back any more. Rents skyrocketed and has paralyzed the ability of the old middle class to comfortably make it. It's simply too expensive here, especially within 495. I have seen the homeless, indigent types in Oregon - that's why Portland smells like urine in many places - nobody likes a slacker. However, the folks I know and have met personally out there (most of whom are from there) don't resemble your slacker description at all - they're professionals who have worked hard to get where they are, but still appreciate the laid-back vibe, small-business character, natural beauty, and lack of humidity that characterizes the NW. It's all about personal preference! I know many folks from MA who have moved to Oregon, and also feel that they don't want to come back. But if it's for you, by all means, come back! Greater Boston is weathering the economic downturn pretty well compared to many places! I agree - MA folk work hard - everyone I know always has, but it's hard to survive as a blue-collar worker, teacher, or public servant, etc, with the MA cost of living any more. That's one big reason I live out in the sticks of the Commonwealth, and it has the benefit of being a lot prettier here than most places inside the overdeveloped 495 belt anyhow - but even out here rents are creeping up-up-up. And it's a bit tough to find a job out here, in the Route 2 rust belt - thankful for mine, and not a freeloader at all, thank you very much. Lots of people willing to work hard who can't find work. And yes, visiting is much different than living in a place - I still stand by, having spent over three months total in Seattle, a combo of vacations and work and in the process meeting many local folk, that I might prefer it to MA - I'll get back to you on it!
You make Mass sound like a complete Hell on Earth, and the rest of the country as Heaven on Earth. Portland, Or is far from perfect dispite all the touristy things you mentioned. This state has under 4 million people and you could fit just about all of New England in it. Oregon is a huge state. Yet it has more poverty, drug types, homelessness and welflare recipients, than you would ever find % wise in Mass. So I would hardly call that a desirable location to live. Mass has several more million people living in it and is far smaller, yet is far more together than Oregon and much of the PNW. Although I would rate the Seattle and Washington as far superior to Portland and Oregon.
I'm sorry you don't care for Mass and I agree Mass has many problems and cons. COL for one. However Im from there and have seen first hand, the rest of the country is no prize either. I was never exposed in all my years in Mass to the social problems in my face every day, that I am exposed to in Oregon. The social problems are an acceptable part of the culture here. From loitering, begging, free speech including swearing and spitting at people, when they don't give you spare change. You can also walk around nude here as long as one is not trying to sexually arouse people. Its a strange state with strange laws. It is obivious why the population is so low. Most Americans could not live here. Just the fact that 10% of one's income goes to Income tax here is bad enough. To support all the welfare recipients and homeless programs
. I would take Mass anyday over Portland, Oregon and its strange population. But I agree with your it is a beautiful area of the country.
. Waterfalls and quick trips out of the city are nice but they don't make a place. People make a place and the mindsets in Portland, don't seem very interested in working and making a living. Say what you want but most New Englanders are hard workers, and you know where you stand with them. They would be ashamed at the amount of freeloaders in this part of the country. I have never seen people with signs begging on streets and stores in Mass, like I see out here. So if this place is more to your liking than Mass, then you should move here. You may find Mass isn't so bad after living elsewhere in America. You can take my place here because I'm leaving this spring. Visiting and living somewhere are two very different experiences.
Where did you live in MA that you never seen people with signs begging for money? I saw it every single day in Worcester. They are always at the intersections on Park Ave. holding some sort of sign asking for handouts. Many times when I would go out to get lunch downtown, someone would ask me for money.
Where did you live in MA that you never seen people with signs begging for money? I saw it every single day in Worcester. They are always at the intersections on Park Ave. holding some sort of sign asking for handouts. Many times when I would go out to get lunch downtown, someone would ask me for money.
??
I've never seen people with signs asking for money for the most part. I worked for a bit out of brockton and didn't see any...went to school in quincy...
I'll admit in boston people can look for donations for political things and that might be annoying but it is much different than someone begging for money.
In all the developments in plymouth and wareham I haven't seen any..sounds like it's mostly worcester.
For the record, I have never substantially lived outside MA, so I'll list a handful of places where I've spent more than a month, for seasonal jobs etc, where the grass truly did seem greener.
1) Seattle, WA (add Portland, OR too). Gets less rain than Boston, despite the reputation, their rain is almost all in the winter instead of ice and snow. When the sun is out (most of the rest of the year), there is NO humidity, barely any days over 90 degrees, and you look out over clear skies to mindblowing snowcapped mountains in all directions, from the 7,000'+ Olympic Range to the west, to the Cascades and Mt Rainier (14,000'+) to the east/south. Note that those peaks are viewed from roughly sea level in Seattle. It will blow your little New England mind, and the Blue Hills and Mt. Wachusett, or even the Whites, will never seem anything like mountains again. People are laid-back, friendly, and much more removed from the ratrace than in MA. There are independent coffeeshops, bookstores, breweries, and generally unique small businesses everywhere. There is happy hour ($2 microbrews and mixed drinks), and the bus service runs late enough that you can get home after last call, unlike the T. Unfortunately, it has become rather expensive, but certainly cheaper than metro Boston, overall. Both Seattle and Portland have easy access to the wilderness, or at least what feels like the wilderness. Case in point - I can't seem to find any 500-foot-high waterfalls along Route 2, on my commute between gnarly N. Central MA milltowns. Outside Portland? Oh, just drive 15 miles or so - said enormous waterfall nearly hangs right over the interstate.
2) Small cities in the South. Chattanooga, TN; Nashville, TN; Asheville, NC; Charleston, SC; etc. These seem almost as liberal as any city in the north, but the people are MUCH nicer and say hello and make small talk, rather than looking at you like you raped their sister, when all you actually did was accidentally make eye contact on Boston's Red Line. Also, they are better socio-economically and racially integrated than New England cities. In NE, we ghettoize the poor and minorities, and shove them into the outer neighborhoods of Boston, and the Lowells, New Bedfords, Springfields, Fitchburgs, Brocktons, etc, while nearly every small town and suburb (think Millis, Cohasset, Ashburnham, etc) is lily-white and latently racist. The south has a terrible racial past, but in these small liberal cities, people of all walks are visibly working and playing side by side. Even the small towns are somewhat more integrated. Plus, that 1-bedroom apt you pay $1,000+ a month for in metro Boston? Try $300 a month in the south. Plus there's happy hour in the south, illegal in MA, where you pay $1 or $2 and receive in return a mixed drink or a microbrewed beer. Also, the south has an identifiable and delicious regional cuisine, spanning smoked BBQ, fried chicken, pies of all kinds, cajun cuisine. Massachusetts has a million filthy Dunkin' Donuts and.... clam chowder? but chowdah's a little more Maine.... I'm drawing a blank here. I am a Yankee, but the human decency, amazing food, and cheap living I've seen in the south, make me a staunch defender of the region! Keep your politics to yourself and you'll be fine. On the latent racism of New England - don't get me started on how nobody burned a church in Alabama the night Obama was elected, but two racist M@sshole subhumans sure did burn a black church in Springfield, MA!!
3) Anchorage, AK. Obviously not for everybody. The winters in this particular city are, surprisingly, not that harsh coldwise, averaging 22 degrees high for a winter day and much less snow than MA (this all because of proximity to a Pacific Ocean inlet - it's inland Fairbanks where the -40 BS goes on). However, the winters are dark 19 hours a day, so, umm, yeah. What I liked so much, though, about it were the people. Everyone is there for a REASON - very few just HAPPEN to end up in Alaska. Lots of people just HAPPEN to live out their lives in Billerica, or some equivalent boring Boston 'burb, often because of a staunch provincial refusal to even try anywhere else. In Anchorage, you are surrounded by majestic mountains, a vibrant and surprisingly diverse city, majestic wildlife everywhere including your backyard (moose are about as common as squirrels), friendly and interesting people who often just happen to be bush pilots, survivalists, professional dog sledders, musicians, mountain climbers, geologists, wildlife biologists, Deadliest Catch fishermen. You are far more likely to meet some truly fascinating individuals, rather than an office drone who commutes to the 128 corridor. Oh and did I mention there are reindeer hot dogs?
4) Austin, TX. Hot hot hot as hell in the summer! However, little to no humidity, awesome music scene every day (national acts all the time, even Tuesday night, to manic week-long music festivals), $1 microbrews at happy hour, Texas BBQ to eat, amazing restaurants to try, fascinating and creative people to meet both in and out of the ratrace (usually with a foot both in the arts and in said ratrace). So many people are young and nubile, so if you are also young and nubile, you should probably try to get laid or something. It really is a kind of weird place - case in point, every night, over a million bats that live underneath one of the bridges over the river next to downtown, take off and fly away past the high-rises and over the horizon. Overall, it is rather hard to articulate, other than to say that: Austin is a place that is happening NOW.
In short, get the hell out for a spell. I've had to return to MA for family reasons, but I've loved the perspective that traveling to other regions has given me. Luckily, I love my current job in MA too, so that helps. In closing, don't let M@ssholes convince you that there's no world outside of I-495, and that all Southerners are idiots. Don't let Dunkin' Donuts convince you that they sell good coffee. And don't give in to the ratrace mindset - it's okay to take a minute and make small talk with the person next to you at the bar, or across from you on the bus - that's what they do in the REST OF THE COUNTRY - it's only human decency.
You make some interesting points, but we would avoid that entire Northwest corridor due to the horrific traffic congestion. Just like Los Angeles.
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Don't believe everything some unknown author writes.
