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[quote=in_newengland;23002028]I'm confused but this sounds like fun. In England all Americans are called Yankees. In the US, New Englanders are often called Yankees. In New England the only people let who are called "true" Yankees are people from Maine (at least that's been my experience.)
My mother's family (1640 Ipswich and Newbury MA) always referred to people as "an old yankee" if they were old timers, extremely frugal, more or less kept to themselves, were sort of crochety, old fashioned, ate plain foods, lived simply. Mostly I think it was that stingy streak of make do, fix it up, wear it out --or however that saying went --and the idea of almost total self sufficiency and independence.
Didn't matter that much how they pronounced things because you pronounced things differently in different parts of New England and you had different names for things too.
I'm 100% English on both sides too but I have one side that came over from England early in the 20th century besides the side that was early New Englanders. I have the family history for both sides and haven't found anyone who wasn't of English extraction. I've done most lines in England back to around 1600 (well, really a variety of cousins did the work) and they all just lived in the same general area for centuries and were just English with no outside influence.
As for the name "WASP" , to me that's meaningless because people tend to think it means you descend from one of the early families AND you are or your ancestors were rich and influential. Well, my colonial ancestors farmed and were blacksmiths, and farmed some more, fought in wars--I've got Robert Rogers head of the Green Mountain Boys of Vermont, the Green Berets are modeled after them--and much later, worked for the railroad.
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Originally Posted by in new england
No one was rich or influential. They founded a few towns, but I guess everyone did that in those days, no big deal. So I don't feel "WASP-ish" if it means coming from a preferred or upper class family but WASP usually implies wealth and privilege. I feel mis-understood.
Kindly don't. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with wealth and privilege.
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Originally Posted by in new england
I have friends in MA whose families go way back in New England but they weren't and are not now rich and privileged. I think the whole WASP thing is a stereotype that applied to a few but not most of the families of early settlers. Yep, I'm white anglo-saxon Protestant all right, and so are a lot of others, but we didn't get any advantages or privileges or wealth from it and that's what WASP usually implies.
I'm probably way off topic so feel free to return to whatever we are supposed to be talking about. lol
I knew the "WASP" thing would rile. It's as though one has to apologize for being a Unitarian or an Episcopalian lately. Ugh.
Anyway it's so. And all New Englanders (for it does not extend beyond the boundaries of these six states) who descend from the sorts of families I described (and you appear to) in my OP are legitimate Yankees. There are Swamp Yankees too, but that's a different thread which I'd rather not explore. Maine folks (or Maniacs) are decidedly not the sole people who can lay claim to being designated true Yankees in the way I described Yankees in my OP.
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Originally Posted by Beachcomber4
I'm looking forward to this thread. My grandmother, 1st generation Italian, married her husband whose lineage was only described as Connecticut Yankee. I have no idea what that means.
Simply put (hereditarilly) your maternal line is Italian (probably Southern) by descent. Your paternal line is as I described in my OP: "Yankee" which equals (by-in-large) English heritage.
An aside: That must have been some battle of the religions!! ;-)
Last edited by Finocchio; 02-16-2012 at 03:26 PM..
As a linguist whose graduate research focused on New England dialects, I can assure you that the only constant in language is change.
If you're familiar with IPA, then I suggest finding a copy of The Linguistic Atlas of New England at the nearest university or city library that carries it. It is a fascinating and enlightening look at the New England dialects of previous generations.
I know it and do not agree with much of what it asserts. I've lived the experience recall.
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Originally Posted by Cato The Elder
What do you call a Yankee pissing contest? I think that's possibly the most enlightening question here.
If that's how you feel why weigh in at all? Obviously this isn't a topic which interests you. Being snarky is less than helpful I assure you.
Since there is obviously much more to being a yankee than having your ancestors arrive on the mayflower and the way you pronounce Raynham, I would like to hear what your definition is? What makes you such a yankee? I mean you started the thread.
I'll respond in kind. And in truth you have no desire to know what the hell I'm talking about so kindly don't feign that you do.
ALL I CAN SUGGEST IS THAT YOU READ THE BLOODY OPENING POST. IT'S ALL THERE. What's this with everyone assuming "The Mayflower"? Feels a whole lot like reverse snobbishness.
In NYC, they considered themselves to be Yankee fans, but not yankees per se because they are NYers! My UK in-laws used to call Americans yanks or yankees too, but I think they got the message with that one .
Indeed. You can only imagine my indignance the first time I saw the bumpah stickah "Yankees Suck". I had to be reminded by a passenger that it referred to a sports team.
What's this with everyone assuming "The Mayflower"? Feels a whole lot like reverse snobbishness.
I'm not sure if I follow what you mean but as I said before, I'm confused but this is an interesting thread. Something different on the Mass forum other than, "What is the best school district for little Johnny or Janie?"Maybe it's the Boston brahmins (sp?) who gave WASPS a bad name. The rest of us WASPS are just as it says--white anglo saxon Protestants, more or less plain and ordinary human beings.
It is, however, more trendy to be Irish or Italian in Mass. They aren't Yankees. Yankees aren't trendy or "in" either..........Going out on a limb here but how come the Irish and Italians can be proud to be what they are but those of us who descend from England feel silly if we tell someone that our families came over in the 1600s? How come other groups can brag about their poor ancestors who came over on the boat and worked in the mills in the 1800s but if your family came over from England to work in the mills you don't have bragging rights? Life in 19th century England was not exactly a bed of roses for most people and our ancestors were brave to scrape the money together to leave and come here. You never hear about it though.
I know it and do not agree with much of what it asserts. I've lived the experience recall.
Uh, what? The Linguistic Atlas of New England is based on an extremely thorough, scientific research project that was conducted by linguists during the 1930s. Many of the people interviewed were elderly, meaning that they were born during the 1850s or even earlier. This is one of the only truly reliable, highly precise sources of information we have about pronunciation and vocabulary from that period. Some of the data can be referenced against recordings that were made; I'm not sure where the recordings are being kept at the moment, but I suspect they may still be at Brown University.
Out of curiosity, which findings do you "disagree" with? Have you really looked through all 3 volumes of the atlas? It's a huge piece of work.
As always, you reply with kindness and real interest for which I'm grateful in_newengland.
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Originally Posted by Finocchio
What's this with everyone assuming "The Mayflower"? Feels a whole lot like reverse snobbishness.
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Originally Posted by in_new england
I'm not sure if I follow what you mean but as I said before, I'm confused but this is an interesting thread.
Something different on the Mass forum other than, "What is the best school district for little Johnny or Janie?"Maybe it's the Boston brahmins (sp?) who gave WASPS a bad name.
Thank you. I'm grateful you recognize my intent in beginning the thread. However, these Boston Brahmins on Beacon Hill were descended (in large part) from the first Puritan families who came to Boston. In subsequent generations their mission (by-in-large) was individual freedoms and philanthropy. I'll cite one case. I refer you to the Beacon Hill resident Mary Parkman Peabody (1891-1981), mother of once-governor of this Commonwealth Endicott (Chub) Peabody. What this woman did at the age of seventy-two for the benefit of others is a testament to our forbears. I know more than most about this since my grandmother's first cousin was one of Mrs. Peabody's great intimates in her social conviction in Civil Rights.
Recall too that the entire Women's Suffrage movement was spearheaded (and hugely funded) on Beacon Hill, as were the first rumblings of the Abolition of Slavery in the form of William Lloyd Garrison. These Brahmins didn't sit on the laurels (and money) of their predecessors but rather took a firsthand part in the setting the wrongs of this country right.
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The rest of us WASPS are just as it says--white anglo saxon Protestants, more or less plain and ordinary human beings.
I think there's something rather nice to being a WASP Yankee of any variety. Where we endlessly hear "St. Paddy's Day Parade in Southie" and "I'm Italian/Irish" (when the indivdual's family has been in this country for four generations!), I say we have a certain (albeit subtle for that's our way) right to be proud of those who set the ground work for others to come (many of them our ancestors) to these shores. So when asked my heredity I get to say "I'm Yankee" with a conservative amount of pride.
It simply infuriates me that no one appears to know what one is any longer. Hell. They're even calling Protestant CALLING HOURS "wakes" now. Whatever next?
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It is, however, more trendy to be Irish or Italian in Mass.
I was unaware of that. But if you say so I'll take your word for it. To this individual I'd not trade my heritage for all the tea in China. The portrait of my 5th Great Grandfather which hangs on the wall of my study is a testament to his personal involvement in the Revolutionary War and his intimate role with many notables whose names ANY AMERICAN would immediately recognize. I don't get to be proud of that? HOGWASH, I say!
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They aren't Yankees. Yankees aren't trendy or "in" either..........Going out on a limb here but how come the Irish and Italians can be proud to be what they are but those of us who descend from England feel silly if we tell someone that our families came over in the 1600s? How come other groups can brag about their poor ancestors who came over on the boat and worked in the mills in the 1800s but if your family came over from England to work in the mills you don't have bragging rights? Life in 19th century England was not exactly a bed of roses for most people and our ancestors were brave to scrape the money together to leave and come here. You never hear about it though.
Great point about the working class English who came here in the 19th century. Who hears about them?
You've now hit on the very substance of why I initiated this topic on this message board. Hold tightly to that heritage my friend. It's a noble one and we are not the sort to lord it over others. That's a good part of what makes us Yankees. I would not change a thing about my strict (although loving) upbringing by parents who were living in a world that was changing far too quickly for them to accomodate. Yet try they did. I hold their desires for this country as my personal responsibility since they're my own as well. I don't take it lightly. My parents were people of quiet dignity and considerable knowledge of the affairs of the United States as well as the world (then as they knew it). They were well-travelled and when they didn't know about a topic being discussed they had the good sense to keep still until they'd done the proper legwork to join in a political or social discussion.
Also:
As unpleasant as it was for the incoming factory worker of Italian or Irish descent in the nineteenth century (and it was), I suggest it was a trifle worse for those who landed here to stake claim when this Atlantic coastline (1600s) was largely an unknown commodity. The determination of these peoples (some) and their conviction to individual freedoms (Pilgrims not the Puritans) is something in which I take considerable pride.
Uh, what? The Linguistic Atlas of New England is based on an extremely thorough, scientific research project that was conducted by linguists during the 1930s.
This is not a linguistics discussion per se. I authored one of those last June. It's closed. Kindly refer to my opening post to link yourself to it.
If you insist on having a discussion re linguistics (which has little or no impact on the premise of this thread), I'd ask that you private message me. I may or may not get back to you given my schedule. As it is I'm devoting all my energies to THIS THREAD. Otherwise, grant me my disagreement for I've lived the experience as previously stated. Rather, let's keep this thread's directon on-topic with no offshoots. As it is, I realize I'll have my share of naysayers when discussing what being a Yankee is all about. But I will not be distracted by those who'd veer the topic's intent away from its primary direction. That direction is found when one sees how the thread is titled.
If you'd like, you're certainly free to begin your own thread on "Northeast Corridor" evolving linguistics and/or etymology . And, I may add, there are other "sources" of definitive information with respect to your interest in linguistics than the tomes to which you refer. Je t'assure.
J'espère que vous me comprenez et mes intentions ici.
Last edited by Finocchio; 02-17-2012 at 07:37 AM..
This is not a linguistics discussion per se. I authored one of those last June. It's closed. Kindly refer to my opening post to link yourself to it.
If you insist on having a discussion re linguistics (which has little or no impact on the premise of this thread), I'd ask that you private message me. I may or may not get back to you given my schedule. As it is I'm devoting all my energies to THIS THREAD. Otherwise, grant me my disagreement for I've lived the experience as previously stated.
Well, you implied that part of what constitutes a true "Yankee" is how he/she speaks. If you think that your speech is more authentically "Yankee" than that of the hundreds of people who were interviewed by the LANE team in the 1930s, then I'm very interested to hear which features you are referring to.
If you think that dialect has no relation to "Yankeeness," then I will happily keep mum in this thread. It just seemed on topic to me.
The best sort of Yankees in their own humble, rarely spoken but definitely felt opinion, were the "Swamp Yankees" who were pretty much as Finocchio said--"extremely frugal, more or less kept to themselves, were sort of crochety, old fashioned, ate plain foods, lived simply". Swamp Yankees never had much money, just lived quietly and managed to get by. They'd have said, "Oh, those people who live in Boston and send ships to China and build factories and get rich, that's fine if you want things to worry about. We're happy enough here."
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Whatever next?
