What constitutes a true "Yankee"? (Boston, Worcester: schools, university)

[Finocchio]

I've only just signed into this site after a hiatus of some eight months.

In a thread closed some time ago (June of '11) Moderator CaseyB responded to one of my earnest posts by saying:

I don't think you can out Yankee me.

Since he mistakenly pronounces Raynham "RAIN' um", I'm quite sure I can.

This brings up a direct challenge to this writer since I am deeply invested in the generational history of my own Yankee family. There is not one branch of my paternal or maternal family that arrived post-1700 to this New World. It's rather unique these days and I'm deservedly proud of it.

In other words, I'm of 100% English descent. However in the "Yankee" context one with my background calls himself Yankee which loosely translated means White Anglo-Saxon and Protestant.

I am all those things. However, who's ever heard of anyone saying I'm "English-American" ....

Here is the Raynham, this is heresy thread I began last June.

If moderator CaseyB would like to weigh in on the comment he made before he closed the other thread, I'd be interested to accept his challenge (or anyone else's for that matter) in his ability to "out Yankee" me.

I'm confident I can do just that. This is all meant in the name of fun, but there are some absolute truths about this New England which I've learned through my own family as a Yankee Bostonian and studied further regionally among other New England Yankee ancestors and various sources.

Here's a "for instance":

The proper pronunciation of Quahog is "KWA' hog" not "KO' hog". The entire previous generation in my family said it just that way. And no one said "wicked" as an adverb for "good", nor did we call the liquor store "the packie".

With regard to the pronunciation of quahog, I have this on irrefutable authority written in detailed explanation of its pronunciation in an 1841 letter written by my Great Great Grandfather to his wife in Newport, Rhode Island.

CaseyB? I accept your challenge when you say "I don't think you can out Yankee me". I say I can.

And remember. The Irish who arrived post the Potato Famine in droves to Boston are not "Yankees". They're what they themselves call "Irish" or "Irish-American".

Anyone care to weigh-in?

[brfire]

I am a born and raised Yankee, my family can be traced back to the original settlers where I live, around here, it is " the Packie", EVERYONE said " thats wicked cool", Worcester is pronounced "Woosta", Gardner is "gahdnah". I'm not trying to "out yankee" you or anyone, but different areas of the state definitely have different ways of pronouncing things. And where I live(Central mass) we do pronounce Raynam like "rain um".

[Beachcomber4]

I'm looking forward to this thread. My grandmother, 1st generation Italian, married her husband whose lineage was only described as Connecticut Yankee. I have no idea what that means.

[in_newengland]

I'm confused but this sounds like fun. In England all Americans are called Yankees. In the US, New Englanders are often called Yankees. In New England the only people let who are called "true" Yankees are people from Maine (at least that's been my experience.)

My mother's family (1640 Ipswich and Newbury MA) always referred to people as "an old yankee" if they were old timers, extremely frugal, more or less kept to themselves, were sort of crochety, old fashioned, ate plain foods, lived simply. Mostly I think it was that stingy streak of make do, fix it up, wear it out --or however that saying went --and the idea of almost total self sufficiency and independence.

Didn't matter that much how they pronounced things because you pronounced things differently in different parts of New England and you had different names for things too.

I'm 100% English on both sides too but I have one side that came over from England early in the 20th century besides the side that was early New Englanders. I have the family history for both sides and haven't found anyone who wasn't of English extraction. I've done most lines in England back to around 1600 (well, really a variety of cousins did the work) and they all just lived in the same general area for centuries and were just English with no outside influence.

As for the name "WASP" , to me that's meaningless because people tend to think it means you descend from one of the early families AND you are or your ancestors were rich and influential. Well, my colonial ancestors farmed and were blacksmiths, and farmed some more, fought in wars--I've got Robert Rogers head of the Green Mountain Boys of Vermont, the Green Berets are modeled after them--and much later, worked for the railroad.

No one was rich or influential. They founded a few towns, but I guess everyone did that in those days, no big deal. So I don't feel "WASP-ish" if it means coming from a preferred or upper class family but WASP usually implies wealth and privilege. I feel mis-understood.

I have friends in MA whose families go way back in New England but they weren't and are not now rich and privileged. I think the whole WASP thing is a stereotype that applied to a few but not most of the families of early settlers. Yep, I'm white anglo-saxon Protestant all right, and so are a lot of others, but we didn't get any advantages or privileges or wealth from it and that's what WASP usually implies.

I'm probably way off topic so feel free to return to whatever we are supposed to be talking about. lol

[Verseau]

As a linguist whose graduate research focused on New England dialects, I can assure you that the only constant in language is change.

If you're familiar with IPA, then I suggest finding a copy of The Linguistic Atlas of New England at the nearest university or city library that carries it. It is a fascinating and enlightening look at the New England dialects of previous generations.

[in_newengland]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

I'm looking forward to this thread. My grandmother, 1st generation Italian, married her husband whose lineage was only described as Connecticut Yankee. I have no idea what that means.

Probably had lineage that went all the way back to colonial days and he lived in CT.

He could have been a Pilgrim or a Puritan who lived in MA and he or the family migrated to CT or he came later on, directly to CT but it was very early on, still in colonial days. So he had complete New England lineage, or even complete CT lineage going way back. That's my guess.

[Cato the Elder]

What do you call a Yankee pissing contest? I think that's possibly the most enlightening question here.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by Finocchio

Anyone care to weigh-in?

Since there is obviously much more to being a yankee than having your ancestors arrive on the mayflower and the way you pronounce Raynham, I would like to hear what your definition is? What makes you such a yankee? I mean you started the thread.

[wivenhoe]

Love the references to RI!!! A RI person has probably a definition of what a Yankee is than someone from MA; that's partly due to the history, how it got founded (Quakers, Anabaptists, Roger Williams, Anne Hutchinson) and who was already there (Narragansett tribe which is still there today).

My mother's maternal side came in the 1600s and were RI Quakers. The rest of the family came off the boat from England/Scotland in the 20th Century to work in the mills in RI or for the millworkers. My family called and thought of themselves as RIers first and foremost and not Yankees (who we associated more with MA lineage even though we're wasps too!). It's funny when I think about it now.

It's interesting because I think the definition of a Yankee has changed. The Boston Brahmin crowd still exists; the Lowells still talk to the Cabots though. But they don't seem as omnipresent as they were in the 70s or 80s. Perhaps it's me? Yes, Phillips Academy, Moses Brown, and other boarding schools haven't gone away, but times are changing and there's probably more people who are not from old New England yankee stock there now than there used to be. I'm not saying you won't find a Weld, Winthrop, or Saltonstall there, but there's probably fewer of them.

New people and money came into the region with high tech/bio tech/finance/education in the 80s and 90s and manufacturing (especially in MA) went out. This has changed the area and I guess what we consider to be a Yankee.

In NYC, they considered themselves to be Yankee fans, but not yankees per se because they are NYers! My UK in-laws used to call Americans yanks or yankees too, but I think they got the message with that one .

[Finocchio]

Originally Posted by brfire

I am a born and raised Yankee, my family can be traced back to the original settlers where I live, around here, it is " the Packie", EVERYONE said " thats wicked cool", Worcester is pronounced "Woosta", Gardner is "gahdnah". I'm not trying to "out yankee" you or anyone, but different areas of the state definitely have different ways of pronouncing things. And where I live(Central mass) we do pronounce Raynam like "rain um".

I realize you're not trying to "out me" anything. Thanks for the thoughtful response. But since you're from Woostah (hooray to see it pronounced properly) I can honestly say that the ever-growing mispronunciation of "Raynham" as "RAIN'um" is entirely wrong. Now they're on the attack for "Wareham". Instead of two syllables, I'm hearing more and more "WARE'um" !!

Pretty soon we'll be hearing "EAST' um" ...... for the town on the Cape.

I think if I said to you "oh! You come from "GAHD DEN ER" (three syllables) you'd not much like it since it's (as you note) "gahdnah" properly. I'd want to be corrected since you know the area. So, allow me to be in the know when it comes to the pronunciation of my ancestral digs RAYN HAM (two syllables). If you'd said "Rain' um" thirty years ago people would have roared in disbelief. It's a very recent phenomenon.

**aside: Do you happen to know the Heywoods of Heywood Wakefield fame? I have a close friend who's a Heywood from Gardner.

I'll defer to your better knowledge of your area if you'll show me the same courtesy. After all we're Yankees. We ought to know.

Originally Posted by Massnative71

Since there is obviously much more to being a yankee than having your ancestors arrive on the mayflower and the way you pronounce Raynham, I would like to hear what your definition is? What makes you such a yankee? I mean you started the thread.

I don't recall saying my ancestors arrived on The Mayflower. But since you assume it to be the case? Many did.

You're not in the least "on" to my VERNACULAR description of the traditional Yankee. It remains as I outlined (solely for the sake of this thread) in my opening post.