Moving to North Shore, deciding between Beverly/Middleton/Lynnfield (Boston: real estate, 2013)

[konfetka]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

This should be framed. I think walkability is over-rated and over idealized too.

In theory, if I believed everyone who said they're into walking around town, I'd see a heck of a lot more pedestrians streaming in toward neighborhoods, and far more open parking spaces in town centers like Beverly. I don't.

More open parking spaces - how do you suppose people from outside the downtown area and other towns are supposed to get there for business or pleasure, by walking? And where are people who live there supposed to leave their cars?

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by kingeorge

If you live in Cambridge, Brookline, Belmont, Watertown, Arlington, Somerville e.g. you will be walking around.

Totally agree...but the OP was asking about very dissimilar towns.

Originally Posted by kingeorge

I do not think walkability is overrated or over-idealized. This area has pedestrian infrastructure, and is desirable. Walking is becoming lot more sought-after way of life than in was, in the last couple of decades. Walkability and desire for walkability is going nowhere. I think it will be even more growing and gaining momentum.

The towns you mention, yes.

Beverly or Middleton, no, and this was the prompt for my comment. If one really wanted walkability, he would not pick Beverly. If you live in Bev Farms, you aren't walking down to Cabot Street like you would if you lived in Powderhouse Sq. and would walk down to Davis. What you might do is drive from the Farms to Cabot Street and walk around all day. That's pretty cool and useful, but it's not what I would typically call walkability.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by konfetka

More open parking spaces - how do you suppose people from outside the downtown area and other towns are supposed to get there for business or pleasure, by walking? And where are people who live there supposed to leave their cars?

You missed my point...if Beverly was so inherently walkable the spaces would be empty. They're not, they're full because people drive downtown and then walk around.

[konfetka]

More fun facts about Beverly: its home to the first Sunday school and to the first Little League in the country. Also it was founded before Boston, by people "off the boat" who landed in Gloucester first, and then moved their colony to Salem. One of their houses, the John Balch House, still stands on Cabot Street, across from the high school. I read it could be the oldest house in the country, but not sure if it's true.

Also if you find a house in Beverly Farms or Prides crossing, it comes with an 'exclusive' membership to West Beach, which has a waiting list of about 8 years. Beverly Farms is a small section of Beverly with its own village center, which is more secluded and exclusive. It is removed from downtown Beverly, and feels like a separate town. They hold their own events and holiday parades, and their own July 4th fireworks. Beverly does theirs during homecoming week in August. The Farms' center size and configuration is just like Manchester-by-the-sea. It also has its own exit on 128. Actually Tom Brady was at West beach last weekend filming an UGG commercial. Its open to the public between Labor day and Memorial day. There were also a couple movies shot recently at one of the waterfront mansions at the Farms. There are 10 private schools in Beverly, and many people who live at the Farms or Prides neirborhood send their kids there.

[konfetka]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

You missed my point...if Beverly was so inherently walkable the spaces would be empty. They're not, they're full because people drive downtown and then walk around.

Beverly is 20 square miles, so it's not physically possible to walk to downtown from everywhere (although they are having a Good Friday walk this week), but it doesn't mean the downtown isn't walkable, in that I would agree that Beverly is not a typical walking town, like Cambridge or Boston, but it does have a walkable downtown, which covers the original footprint of the town, just like Salem. The difference is there is no reason to walk in residential parts outside of downtown, unless for exercise or pleasure. There are sidewalks, and other sections are walkable locally (to school or a train station), and you could ride a bike through the entire city, which many people do, for example to the train station. Also Beverly Farms is like a small town in itself, where most residents can walk to the village center with a train station, a library, a post office, and shops and restaurants, or the beach.

I would agree that many people don't take advantage of walkability, and driving is quicker and easier, but it is usefull, when you have small kids, and you can go for a walk with a stroller, or take them for a bike ride, or when you want to walk to a local park, or a train station, a restaurant, or a beach, as long as it's a reasonable distance. For example my kids will be able to walk to the high school, and the middle school, and on the way the can stop and get ice cream, its a nice convinience. When they are old enough they could probably get a job within a walking distance, even now they can go for walk with neighboring kids to get ice cream, and they will be able to ride a bike to their friends house. You really appreciate walkability if you grew up with it, may be its not for everyone.

[kingeorge]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Totally agree...but the OP was asking about very dissimilar towns.



The towns you mention, yes.

Beverly or Middleton, no, and this was the prompt for my comment. If one really wanted walkability, he would not pick Beverly. If you live in Bev Farms, you aren't walking down to Cabot Street like you would if you lived in Powderhouse Sq. and would walk down to Davis. What you might do is drive from the Farms to Cabot Street and walk around all day. That's pretty cool and useful, but it's not what I would typically call walkability.

I understand where you coming from, but I still think that you are underestimating Beverly's potential for "gentrification" (dislike the term, but have none better right now) because of the infrastructure, sidewalks and downtown area. This is where Beverly is much more ahead of Middleton or Lynnfield. And do not forget that commercial tax base is very healthy as well in Beverly.

E.g., I am not sure if this is Beverly Farms area but there is very nice stretch of small stores and restaurant that is very attractive and will stay attractive in the years to come because people will value chance to walk to something (anything) in their neighborhood. This is what I was trying to convey in my earlier post. Places with some walkability and potential to develop into more walkable and interesting neighborhoods are places to watch and also invest into.


Millennials in 2014: Take My Car, Not My Phone - Forbes



The Top 3 Reasons Why People Are Driving Less - Forbes



Hence is the car industry in this country on the verge of a serious decline because younger people are just not buying cars in the same numbers as their parents generation. Paradigm is shifting. Student debt is also making it harder.

Beverly will go up in value because it has what it takes to become very desirable place to live. Many young couples and families priced out of places like Cambridge or Brookline will take care of that in the coming decades, IMHO.

[konfetka]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Totally agree...but the OP was asking about very dissimilar towns.



The towns you mention, yes.

Beverly or Middleton, no, and this was the prompt for my comment. If one really wanted walkability, he would not pick Beverly. If you live in Bev Farms, you aren't walking down to Cabot Street like you would if you lived in Powderhouse Sq. and would walk down to Davis. What you might do is drive from the Farms to Cabot Street and walk around all day. That's pretty cool and useful, but it's not what I would typically call walkability.

You wouldn't walk to downtown from the Farms, but it is so small and compact, because it was designed before cars were invented, that chances are you could walk from your house there to a train station, a post office, a beach, a library or anywhere in the Farms center.

The key difference between Beverly and Middleton and Lynnfield, (and a similarity to Gloucester, Salem, Danvers) is it was designed to be self-sufficient before cars were invented with walkability being the main goal. Just like Boston and Cambridge, but on a much much smaller scale. Yes other parts were built later, and that's why they have such a different character.

[3cents]

Originally Posted by kingeorge

I do not think walkability is overrated or over-idealized. This area has pedestrian infrastructure, and is desirable. Walking is becoming lot more sought-after way of life than in was, in the last couple of decades. Walkability and desire for walkability is going nowhere. I think it will be even more growing and gaining momentum.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I miss my daily 1+ hour (in total) of walks when I was living in another place. More important than being to walk to the town center, is whether there are pavements around your house for walking. I live in Winchester, and complain when pavements suddenly end, and I'm forced to walk on the road. But of course, if I was rich enough to live in "the Flats" near town center, then I probably wouldn't have this problem.

I assume pavements are also rarer in other towns further from Boston? Another potential issue is how large are lot sizes. In Winchester, lot sizes are typically 1/3 of an acre. Not huge. Thus, I could potentially see various interesting things within a 20 minutes walk radius: farm, church, golf course, baseball fields, etc.

[DemBones2011]

Guess I should clarify. I am not talking about walking from the house to the grocery store, shopping, activities, etc. We fully expect to drive although there is so much packed in to such a small area up there that nothing is very far compared to where we are coming from. By walkability, I mean there is an area where you can park, walk around with the kids, window shop, stop for coffee, lunch, whatever. Much like Salem's downtown for instance. In Lynnfield or Middleton, there just seems to be homes and not much of a town center, downtown, etc. that you are going to stroll around.

[495neighbor]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

You missed my point...if Beverly was so inherently walkable the spaces would be empty. They're not, they're full because people drive downtown and then walk around.

But that's true about Lexington as well. One of the reasons the downtown is vibrant is because of that huge and reasonably priced parking lot behind the stores. It's behind the stores, so it isn't an eyesore. Some people use it to get on the bike trails. Others to visit the downtown. Lots of people live around Lexington center and walk the downtown, but not everyone hanging out there lives in that part of Lexington or even in that town. Still on most of these boards it is regarded as one of the more walkable towns.

Andover town center is another one. Many discreet parking lots behind the businesses.