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Just wanted to throw out that you can do that with oil - you can fill the tank off season, you can lock into a rate with an oil company early in the season, and you can shop around and negotiate with the local oil companies. Not sure of the numbers since it's been a while since I lived with oil heat and on the whole gas is still cheaper right now but I just wanted to point out that there is a little flexibility in pricing with oil. With gas you just have to sign on with the one mega gas company that has lines in your neighborhood.
Yeah, but the wholesale price of home heating oil is around $2.90 to $3.00 now at the lowest point of 2014. By the time you pay the mark-up for a retailer to put it into a delivery truck and get it to your home, it's still going to be over $3.00 per gallon. Instead of 2x the cost of NStar city gas, it's 1.9x the cost of NStar city gas.
I'd also point out that the oil price is completely inflexible. To get that kind of price, you have to pay to fill all your oil tanks now. With city gas, you pay in arrears as you use it and the meter is read. Most of us would rather pay our January heating bill in February than in the previous July.
I agree. I use around 900 gallons of oil during the 6 coldest months of the year, but only 100-150 gallons (1/2 a tank) the other 6 months.
I went by experiences of a neighbor who was complaining that their water heater uses lot more oil than you would think and wrongly assumed that most would eat more and not less oil. Their heat system is very old and oil truck visits very often.
Personally, for me it would be no brainier to get an efficient electric tank-less water heater and do not worry about refiling oil tank as often. But, if it uses only small fraction of oil, I can see why there is no urgency to convert.
This is a huge over estimate. Oil is more expensive, but not that much more expensive. And central AC is nice, but room ACs are just so cheap and efficient these days you can really get by without it in New England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD
This is not accurate information.
I own two homes. One is heated with NStar city gas. The other is a townhouse condo with a metered shared propane tank. I'm paying bulk contract $1.79/gallon for the propane where friends are paying $2.25/gallon contract price for their single family homes. I've done the apples vs apples comparison. My per-BTU energy costs are almost 2x burning propane compared to city gas. Oil and propane prices are similar. Unless you have a few thousand gallons of tank and can bulk buy in the summer when prices are down, oil is at least 2x the cost of city gas.
Here's the math:
For Nstar city gas in high winter volumes, I pay $0.58 delivery charge per therm and $0.5672 for the actual gas per therm. Call it $1.15 per therm. Propane yields 0.91 therms per gallon so I'm paying $1.91 per therm for propane at my other house. Heating oil yields 1.38 therms per gallon. A quick internet search shows today's statewide oil prices are all at least $3.10/gallon with most more like $3.30. Using the lower $3.10 price, that comes out to $2.25+ per therm.
So by my math, heating oil is at least 2x the price of Nstar natural gas. Oil would have to cost around $1.60/gallon to achieve parity.
The calculation in most parts of the country would be even more biased towards natural gas. New England has a gas pipeline supply problem so we pay much more for natural gas delivery charges than anywhere else in the country. All the electric power generation conversions from coal to natural gas made the problem even worse and we now have natural gas shortages in the dead of winter where industry has to dial back their electric consumption.
My house is cooled with a 19 SEER inverter DC motor driven mini-split system. It's roughly 3x more efficient than the most efficient window air conditioner on the market.
I don't disagree on the relative costs of oil and gas. Gas is way cheaper and likely to be much cheaper for a long time. I was just disagreeing that oil would be $3600 more expensive/year than gas in the typical home. I think you'd need to read through the entire exchange to get my quote in the correct context
And yes, a larger AC is likely to be more efficient in terms of cooling power per the unit of energy consumed. Window units are more efficient in that you generally only cool the particular room that you're in rather than the entire house (although that is a major inconvenience at times). They're also far more cost efficient in terms of equipment and installation, at least if you've got a house like mine without ducts.
I went by experiences of a neighbor who was complaining that their water heater uses lot more oil than you would think and wrongly assumed that most would eat more and not less oil. Their heat system is very old and oil truck visits very often.
Personally, for me it would be no brainier to get an efficient electric tank-less water heater and do not worry about refiling oil tank as often. But, if it uses only small fraction of oil, I can see why there is no urgency to convert.
I stand corrected.
Electricity in Massachusetts is very expensive compared to much of the rest of the country. Most of us pay around 20 cents per KWh. Unless you're shelling out big bucks for a heat pump water heater, heating water off of a loop on an oil boiler is going to be much cheaper. You're also not going to be replacing a failed electric water heater every 10 to 15 years (if you remember to replace the anode rod periodically) at $600+ for the plumber bill. The recovery time for any electric water heater is also very slow. It's pathetically slow if you're using nothing but the heat pump and not using resistive heat as a boost (hybrid mode).
And yes, a larger AC is likely to be more efficient in terms of cooling power per the unit of energy consumed. Window units are more efficient in that you generally only cool the particular room that you're in rather than the entire house (although that is a major inconvenience at times). They're also far more cost efficient in terms of equipment and installation, at least if you've got a house like mine without ducts.
You need to take a glance at mini-split A/C systems. You put an air handler in each room and the compressor/condenser out on a pad like it's central air. Each air handler has a coolant loop running to the compressor and you drill a 3" hole in an exterior wall for each handler to run the piping. With DC inverter technology, you only compress as much coolant as you need to run the air handlers you're using. Since there are no ducts, you don't have all the losses that happen in the duct system. Like window air conditioners, you have the option to only turn on an air handler in a room when you're using the room.
When I went from window A/C to a mini-split, my August electric bill dropped to 1/3 of what it used to be when I only used my window units as little as possible. The air handlers are also very quiet and I'm not listening to the roar of a window A/C constantly.
You need to take a glance at mini-split A/C systems. You put an air handler in each room and the compressor/condenser out on a pad like it's central air. Each air handler has a coolant loop running to the compressor and you drill a 3" hole in an exterior wall for each handler to run the piping. With DC inverter technology, you only compress as much coolant as you need to run the air handlers you're using. Since there are no ducts, you don't have all the losses that happen in the duct system. Like window air conditioners, you have the option to only turn on an air handler in a room when you're using the room.
When I went from window A/C to a mini-split, my August electric bill dropped to 1/3 of what it used to be when I only used my window units as little as possible. The air handlers are also very quiet and I'm not listening to the roar of a window A/C constantly.
Thanks. We are looking to get a more central A/C system for our house. I'm from Louisiana and frankly want A/C about two weeks a year, but the wife is from Minnesota and wants it about 6 months out of the year ;-)
Personally, for me it would be no brainier to get an efficient electric tank-less water heater and do not worry about refiling oil tank as often. But, if it uses only small fraction of oil, I can see why there is no urgency to convert.
We hadn't even thought about going tankless until our oil dealer suggested it after the water heater rusted out and flooded the basement It makes sense for us because there's only two of us and the dog. If we had kids, it wouldn't be practical.
Does the electric company offer any incentives to heat with electricity? We had Geothermal in Ohio (similar climate), and while the system was a bit more expensive than traditional forced air to install, with reduced electric rates we found it very affordable and would get it again in a second.
The oil burner was JUST replaced (which he thinks is a selling point) so even if he converts (and i'm not sure if he even has that option) he could not get any tax breaks since the burner is less than 20 yrs old!
I think you mean rebates, not tax breaks. But you definitely can get rebates if you convert from oil to gas even if the oil furnace or boiler is brand new. There are additional rebates for older systems, but you can still find decent deals and get a 0% 7 year loan to convert.
To do that, you need a free energy audit first. You can also get discounts on new windows, and insulation.
So yes, oil is more expensive than gas. However, there are options available to convert and update an older house. If it has the location or features that your friend really wants, oil heat shouldn't be a huge deterrent. He should confirm that there's a gas line near by though. It could be very expensive if it's a few streets away.
All things being equal of course I would go with gas, but like people have said, that is not the situation. We have a 1300 sq ft ranch heated with oil (the finished part of the basement can also be heated but we did not use it last winter.) Now that we've been here for almost a year, I can say we spent about 2k on oil for the year. We also have a tankless water heater.
We recently installed central air which has the capability to heat and we are expecting to save about $500 more per year based on the calculation using the price of oil and savings based on price of kw of electricity.
We chose a house with oil based on town, location, yard, etc. I guess you just have to factor in the cost of what you plan to spend on oil or a conversion. Just like we did based on the fact that the house we bought had no central air and we had it put in. I don't even understand people who say they won't look at a place w/o central air-- its 3 days of work, but that's another conversation.
I would look at a house with almost anything missing/needing to be improved and factor in the cost and effort/time needed and base my decision on the whole picture.
It sure sucks paying that oil bill in Dec/Jan/Feb though!!
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It makes sense for us because there's only two of us and the dog. If we had kids, it wouldn't be practical.
