Why in the world did the bottle bill not pass? (Boston: neighborhoods, buying)

[goyguy]

Originally Posted by bohemka

You know what you don't see in Germany? Abandoned bottles and cans. You are right when you say we are behind the rest of the developed world.

Instead, the big bad government will be forced to overpay cleanup crews to do the same work.

You know what you still see in Massachusetts? Water, juice, and "sports drink" bottles all over the ground. Despite all the predictable littering of beer empties - and soda cans - those containers magically disappear pretty fast.

Big business and their right-wing cronies learned a long time ago that all too many voters' minds are easily manipulated by the words "forced" and the hated-most-of-all "taxes." No food budget was ever knocked askew by a measly five cents per container on bottled or canned drinks. But when enough dollars are shoveled into commercials where ominous voices intone, "The government is FORCING you..." or bought-and-paid-for talking heads raise the absurd specter of "Up to a dollar in hidden taxes per drink" more than enough gullible listeners swallow it whole.

It's the same reason that Question 4 (mandating sick pay for workers, according to set guidelines) passed easily, by about a 3-2 margin, when it should've been hit out of the park. The specious arguments which usually work so well: "The cost to businesses will be passed along to YOU," "It's more government regulation driving small family-owned companies under," and so on were no match for the issue at hand. Few are those who have been so lucky as to not only never fall ill themselves, but to have only perpetually healthy household members. Quite a few employers have either folded sick pay into a combined - with vacation - block of "paid time off" or just done away with it entirely. Now they're going to have to change their way of doing things back to the way it should be done. And certain advertising types are dusting themselves off to prepare for a fear and misinformation bombardment if and when paid parental (or at least maternity) leave may come up for a vote.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Ok, sorry about that.

No need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure you knew those weren't my words even though it appeared that they were. It was entirely my fault. I was actually reading the quote and thinking "that doesn't sound like anything I would ever say."

Originally Posted by timberline742

Sure, the money would be better going to charity, I guess. Depends on the charity. But loads of people (I see them all over) supplement their incomes by collecting bottles. They will be impacted. The least fortunate among us.

But this is also, in addition to that, and environmental factor. Pre deposit, the roads and sidewalks were littered with cans. No longer. They're scooped right up. There are still waterbottles. Those would be scooped up with a deposit, and it would help the poorest among us.

The only downside is a nickel a container, which is nothing. Little downside, big double impact upside.

Personally, I'd rather the money go to a charity than forcing people to demean themselves by digging through trash everyday. Not to mention, it's dangerous. These people could seriously hurt themselves on broken glass or even a soup can lid. Who knows what kind of germs they could pick up going through people's trash as well. It's not cheap to be sick.

Also, I completely agree with your point about the litter we saw pre-deposit. Putting a deposit on these bottles severely cut down on it. However, what you fail to take into consideration is that was another time. People are far more environmentally conscious now. Recycling was virtually non-existent then. Now, you can recycle in tons of places. If the repealed the bottle deposit law, I highly doubt things would go back to the way it used to be.

Originally Posted by GeoffD

I don't understand bottled water. I have a really good 3M filter on the water line to my refrigerator. My drinking water and ice taste better than most bottled water because my filter is better. I have several quart nalgene bottles. The only time I buy bottled water is if I'm traveling.

Me either. I'm with Lewis Black when it comes to bottled water.

Lewis Black: Bottled Water - YouTube

Originally Posted by CaseyB

You keep repeating that it's a nickel, but it wouldn't have remained that if the ballot initiative had been approved:

"The proposed law would require the state Secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs (EEA) to adjust the container deposit amount every five years to reflect (to the nearest whole cent) changes in the consumer price index, but the value could not be set below five cents."

Elections: QUESTION 2: Comprehensive Permits for

At one point in time (maybe when the bottle bill first went in to effect) wasn't it 10 cents?

Originally Posted by bohemka

In Germany, for example, the deposit is 25¢. For reference, this is about 30% of the cost of a store-bought Augustiner, and it can be 75% the cost of a cheap beer. That's a rather significant percentage.

You know what you don't see in Germany? Abandoned bottles and cans. You are right when you say we are behind the rest of the developed world.

Instead, the big bad government will be forced to overpay cleanup crews to do the same work.

There are so many jokes about Germany that I want to make here but I'm going to hold my tongue.

Anyway, maybe I don't get out enough but I just don't see all the littered bottles that you guys are talking about. Sure, I see people throw bottles/cans in the trash from time-to-time but I don't see them laying on the ground.

[Mr. Joshua]

Originally Posted by CaseyB

Wellesley doesn't have trash pick-up, it's private like several other towns.

BTW, there was nothing to limit these deposits to 5 cents, either.

BINGO!

With Democrats in charge, that deposit would be tied to the CPI within a few short years.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by MikePRU

Also, I completely agree with your point about the litter we saw pre-deposit. Putting a deposit on these bottles severely cut down on it. However, what you fail to take into consideration is that was another time. People are far more environmentally conscious now. Recycling was virtually non-existent then. Now, you can recycle in tons of places. If the repealed the bottle deposit law, I highly doubt things would go back to the way it used to be.

I disagree with you on this precisely because we DO see water and juice bottles all around, despite the amount of recycling containers about. The only difference is the deposit.

Also cigarette butts are everywhere, but that is a different topic.

[Parsec]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Also cigarette butts are everywhere, but that is a different topic.

Easy way to get rid of that is to change the fine for littering cigarette butts to $1000. Then we need to require a license to purchase cigerettes for personal use. To get a license you must submit a DNA sample. Now that every smoker's DNA is in a database we can hire someone to collect cigarette butts and run them through the database and automatically send out litterbug tickets. We'll also let boston.com post a picture of all cigarette litter offenders to further embarrass them to ensure it never happens again.

Well, that's what I'd do if I were a dictator. Sorry, Fridays tend to bring out the silliness in me.

[pennyone]

Originally Posted by goyguy

You know what you still see in Massachusetts? Water, juice, and "sports drink" bottles all over the ground. Despite all the predictable littering of beer empties - and soda cans - those containers magically disappear pretty fast.

Big business and their right-wing cronies learned a long time ago that all too many voters' minds are easily manipulated by the words "forced" and the hated-most-of-all "taxes." No food budget was ever knocked askew by a measly five cents per container on bottled or canned drinks. But when enough dollars are shoveled into commercials where ominous voices intone, "The government is FORCING you..." or bought-and-paid-for talking heads raise the absurd specter of "Up to a dollar in hidden taxes per drink" more than enough gullible listeners swallow it whole.

It's the same reason that Question 4 (mandating sick pay for workers, according to set guidelines) passed easily, by about a 3-2 margin, when it should've been hit out of the park. The specious arguments which usually work so well: "The cost to businesses will be passed along to YOU," "It's more government regulation driving small family-owned companies under," and so on were no match for the issue at hand. Few are those who have been so lucky as to not only never fall ill themselves, but to have only perpetually healthy household members. Quite a few employers have either folded sick pay into a combined - with vacation - block of "paid time off" or just done away with it entirely. Now they're going to have to change their way of doing things back to the way it should be done. And certain advertising types are dusting themselves off to prepare for a fear and misinformation bombardment if and when paid parental (or at least maternity) leave may come up for a vote.

Yes, the limits of our democracy, when big money use psychological warfare and lots of cash driven commercials to instill fear into people with hazy understanding and get them to vote a certain way. In return, the voters feel that they had free will and gave their "democratic voice", big companies reap even more profit by avoiding any cost to help the environment, and Mother Nature pays, pays and pays for the dirty and self indulgent habits of this blight call humanity. That's how it is folks.

I would just ban all plastic and aluminum container and force everyone all to use recycled bio-degradable carton containers.

[Bruins_Fan]

Yup, nanny statism is alive and well in this thread.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by pennyone

I would just ban all plastic and aluminum container and force everyone all to use recycled bio-degradable carton containers.

I'd be more than happy to drink out of some kind of biodegradable container. Especially if it meant the end of the bottle deposit law.

[timberline742]

Yeah, damn those nanny environmentalists. How dare they care about the world we live in, USA USA USA!

[Boston_Burbs]

Small towns could do so much more with the revenue from the increased recycle stream than the state uses with the 5 cents they collect. Most towns make you pay for trash so recycling is very much done just in the vain of saving money.

What I hope this does is spark am effort for total repeal of the bottle deposit law.