Un-official poll President

[verberus]

What does "huhn" mean? Is it foreign?

[capecodcathy]

Originally Posted by verberus

What does "huhn" mean? Is it foreign?

Gotta agree with Tamiz, here. Most of us are descended from immigrants who all learned to speak English. No one would challenge that French is the language of France, Spanish the language of Spain, or Portuguese the language of Brazil. I don't need anyone to tell me those are the languages they speak in their countries. We shouldn't need legislation to tell us that English is the language of the United States of America.

[LeavingMA]

Originally Posted by capecodcathy

Gotta agree with Tamiz, here. Most of us are descended from immigrants who all learned to speak English. No one would challenge that French is the language of France, Spanish the language of Spain, or Portuguese the language of Brazil. I don't need anyone to tell me those are the languages they speak in their countries. We shouldn't need legislation to tell us that English is the language of the United States of America.

I agree we shouldn't need legislation, but the issue is with no legislation saying English is the official language of the United States we then need to support and provide access for non-english speaking persons.

Or everyone could just act smug and not associate or have anything to do with non-english speaking people. Of course this would require everyone's help.

[holden125]

Originally Posted by capecodcathy

Gotta agree with Tamiz, here. Most of us are descended from immigrants who all learned to speak English. No one would challenge that French is the language of France, Spanish the language of Spain, or Portuguese the language of Brazil. I don't need anyone to tell me those are the languages they speak in their countries. We shouldn't need legislation to tell us that English is the language of the United States of America.

Not so clear. First of all, there is a legal basis for imposing the dominant language in those countries. Portugese is legally the official language of Brazil. French is the official language in France per the national Constitution, and there have been various legislative and constitutional enactments to that effect for almost 500 years. The dominance of what is commonly known as French over the regional languages spoken in various areas there, however, only dates to the time of Napoleon about 200 years ago, and France has had recurring issues as a result of its supression of regional languages (particularly Breton, Corsican, Basque, and Gascon) due to extreme political centralization in Paris.

In Spain, Spanish (meaning Castilian Spanish) is the official language since 1714, but this has also created tremendous political upheaval and since 1979 Catalan, commonly spoken by a large number of people, has been recognized as an official language in the NE part of the country, including in Barcelona. In other regions of Spain additional regional languages have also acquired co-official language status. The Basque independence movement has waged a terrorist campaign in Spain for several decades over sovereignty, and language plays a part in their list of grievances.

Likewise, "Italian" is the regional language of Tuscany and, while it is now generally understood all over Italy, a country only unified since 1870, in many parts of Italy people still speak their regional dialects.

Many Italian and German immigrants 100 years ago, particularly in large cities or areas such as the Midwest where they arrived in large numbers, did not particularly strive to master English. My Russian great-grandmother was never able to learn much and spoke Russian with her sisters for 70 years. The children of immigrants, born here, learn English in school and with their friends and go on to assimilated lives. But during WWI there were many German language papers in Nebraska and Chicago, and a ton of Yiddish papers in New York. Even in Brockton they sold papers in Italian. There is a built-in mechanism to force English upon children born here in the social structure and you don't hear of 3rd generation people who speak no English. If anything kids born here shun their family's ancestral language for English as soon as they can, which I find in itself sad when they have an opportunity to master two.

Many Americans don't realize how difficult it is to come over to a place where a different language is spoken and master it as an adult, particulary with little formal education. I lived in France and found that many of the large number of English speaking expatriates speak English to each other, and to the French, whenever they can because it makes communication possible without struggle.

As a native English speaker, even in polyglot places like Boston and particularly New York City, I have never felt like my opportunities have been limited by the fact that English doesn't have legal protection. I think the presence of people from so many other countries and cultures enriches our nation, and would not support any legislation to declare English an offical language.

[capecodcathy]

I don't need to know that Brazil has "officially" declared Portuguese as the official language. I know it's the language spoken. And if I need to communicate effectively with that country's citizens, I had better damn well learn it if I'm going to live there. Same with France, Spain, Germany, etc. And they all have their own dialects, as do we.
If I were moving to Brazil, I wouldn't expect the Brazilian population to learn English to accommodate ME. Nor would I expect them to provide my children with special classes: "Portugese as a 2nd Language" at public expense. Nor would I expect them to provide a "press 1 for English" when I call for service at Town Hall (or the equivalent). Or the RMV, or my insurance company, or anywhere else.
But thank you.

[holden125]

Originally Posted by capecodcathy

I don't need to know that Brazil has "officially" declared Portuguese as the official language. I know it's the language spoken. And if I need to communicate effectively with that country's citizens, I had better damn well learn it if I'm going to live there. Same with France, Spain, Germany, etc. And they all have their own dialects, as do we.
If I were moving to Brazil, I wouldn't expect the Brazilian population to learn English to accommodate ME. Nor would I expect them to provide my children with special classes: "Portugese as a 2nd Language" at public expense. Nor would I expect them to provide a "press 1 for English" when I call for service at Town Hall (or the equivalent). Or the RMV, or my insurance company, or anywhere else.
But thank you.

The dialects in those counties are not dialects like in the US, which are basically accents with some regional expressions thrown in. They are full-blown different languages, often as different from each other as Italian and Spanish. If you know one, you can read and probably figure out the other, but it's not like me going to Alabama.

And it's simply not true that you have to learn the local language to live in a lot of these places. There are plenty of jobs in Paris where locals who speak only French are at a serious disadvantage since the employers want English speakers to deal with the large number of bankers, lawyers, etc. from English-speaking countries who live in Paris for decades without learning enough French to get by at work. And that's talking about access to the best-paying jobs in a country where French is the official language. I've spent half the last year in Germany for work, trying to fumble through my elementary German just to have almost everyone from the airport people to the bakery people to the town clerk jump in to speak very good English with me.

Hearing "press 1 for English" is not a burden in my life. It always makes me laugh when Americans act as if English is somehow a threatened language in the world, when if you go anywhere around the globe we English speakers are the predominant guilty parties when it comes to expecting others to cater to our language. People have come here for centuries, learning English right away or not, and the country has not been any worse for it. There are much greater injustices to get p***ed off about than having RMV forms available in Spanish.

[capecodcathy]

Agreed that many bankers, etc. who want to deal internationally will need to learn the language of the country they are dealing with.
There are many more foreign leaders, though, who need an interpreter just to voice their position. As well they should. They speak the language of their country. Hence, the job of interpreter at the United Nations.
I don't believe the English language is threatened 'in the world'. The world doesn't need to speak English. I'm not that presumptuous. But, if you're going to live in my country, you need to have a working knowledge of the language of my country.

[capecodcathy]

"Many Italian and German immigrants 100 years ago, particularly in large cities or areas such as the Midwest where they arrived in large numbers, did not particularly strive to master English. My Russian great-grandmother was never able to learn much and spoke Russian with her sisters for 70 years. The children of immigrants, born here, learn English in school and with their friends and go on to assimilated lives. But during WWI there were many German language papers in Nebraska and Chicago, and a ton of Yiddish papers in New York. Even in Brockton they sold papers in Italian. There is a built-in mechanism to force English upon children born here in the social structure and you don't hear of 3rd generation people who speak no English. If anything kids born here shun their family's ancestral language for English as soon as they can, which I find in itself sad when they have an opportunity to master two."
You just proved my point.
And kids don't shun their ancestral heritage. If it's taught to them properly.
Assimilate? Isn't that why our ancestors came here?

[smarty]

You guys will have fun with this ad....

YouTube - ALP - Blueprint


Also, Clinton had supported Blacks in the past. I wonder what would happen to Blacks if Clinton instead of Obama won the nomination... especially if the hispanic vote help elect her.

Btw... Obama never promised to help blacks if he is president.

Obama: "Don't tell me words don't matter. 'I have a dream' * just words? 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' * just words? 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself' * just words? Just speeches?"

Patrick: "'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' * just words? 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself' * just words? 'Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.' Just words? 'I have a dream' * just words?"

[holden125]

Originally Posted by capecodcathy

You just proved my point.
And kids don't shun their ancestral heritage. If it's taught to them properly.
Assimilate? Isn't that why our ancestors came here?

My point was that this has always happened and is still happening, and having foreign language papers and TV stations, or customer service hotlines and RMV forms in Spanish does not affect that process. Those who come here as adults, with no background in learning English when they were young, often struggle to learn much English. Their kids who are born here almost always speak English perfectly, which they and their descendants will need to get professional-type jobs. There is little threat that every modern-day immigrant's family will go forever without learning English, so I don't see a big problem in having some things available in other languages. The assimilation happens among the generations born here, but less so among those who come as adults, and that is no different from 100 years ago. I think the only point of disagreement is that you don't like services being available in other languages, and it does not bother me since I don't see it as a threat to English speakers.

It's been documented that some kids do shun their ancestral language, if not their heritage. A close friend of mine, from Puerto Rico, moved to Boston with her 4-year old son, who had been born and raised to that point in Puerto Rico, and spoke only Spanish. After going to preschool here and watching TV in English, he basically stopped speaking Spanish, and she decided to return to P.R. long enough for him to master Spanish, which is the only language for most of her large family who live on the island. She is having him take English on the side so he'll be OK if they come back to the States. She thought it would be enough to have his parents, extended family, and half the neighborhood speak Spanish, but it was not because the kid sensed that English was the lingua franca in these parts and flat out did not want to speak any Spanish.

Immigrant parents struggle to keep their children bilingual - The Boston Globe