Boston Globe article-is buying a home in boston worth it? (Worcester: public schools, quality of life)

[Whatsnext75]

The other thing I notice about boston is that if someone moves to a place like Quincy, Weymouth or Woburn they get looked down on. It's like you've only made if you can afford to live in one of the so called hot spots.

[Parsec]

Originally Posted by Whatsnext75

The other thing I notice about boston is that if someone moves to a place like Quincy, Weymouth or Woburn they get looked down on. It's like you've only made if you can afford to live in one of the so called hot spots.

I agree, and that just shows how our standard of success is so much greater than in other regions of the country.

[Whatsnext75]

Originally Posted by Parsec

I agree, and that just shows how our standard of success is so much greater than in other regions of the country.

It it though? Maybe we have it backwards. I'm starting to think the successful people are the ones who leave for better weather and nicer homes that cost less.

[Parsec]

Originally Posted by Whatsnext75

It it though? Maybe we have it backwards. I'm starting to think the successful people are the ones who leave for better weather and nicer homes that cost less.

This is a very small sample size, but everyone I know who left MA was not earning the big bucks. In fact, they all dreamed of living in a McMansion but could only afford the bottom unit of a triple decker in Arlington. Hence, they moved down South and bought a McMansion for $250k. Their commutes got worse because sprawl is bad down South, they spend more money on gas, and their electricity bill tripled. They also complain about all the strip malls and the 4 hour drive to get to the beach. Every area has its pros and cons, but I personally think that the Boston area it's well worth the price. I think the only better place to live is the Bay area and that's even more expensive.

[vtecluder617]

Originally Posted by Whatsnext75

It it though? Maybe we have it backwards. I'm starting to think the successful people are the ones who leave for better weather and nicer homes that cost less.

Bingo! That's exactly what we're doing. Throw in much lower property taxes and the fact that my wife will be taking her six figure salary job with her, it is almost impossible not to pull the trigger and do it.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by Whatsnext75

I'm just quoting what i read in an article. I cant find the article now. Anyways, in Boston i think anything between 100k and 150k would be middle class still.

Meh. "Middle class" is meaningless.

The median household income in Massachusetts is about $67,000.

Norfolk county is the highest median household income county at about $85,000.

Using the old school 28%/33% numbers, $85,000 can afford $24,000 in mortgage, taxes, and insurance. With 20% down, that's a $450-ishK house. That won't get you a big house in a Zillow 9+ school system town inside 495 where all the 1%-ers are buying but it gets you a middle class house in an outer suburb with access to commuter rail. $67K would also get you into one of those towns though with a lesser house.

I don't buy that $150K is "middle class". If you earn $150,000 in W-2 income, you're in the top-3.5% nationally.
Citation: https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2014

There is an extremely limited supply of "good" housing in metro-Boston where "good" is what a 1%-er wants to buy. Top-10 school system. Big house on a large lot. A town center with a pulse. An easy commute to the office. Just because it takes a huge down payment and at least $150K of income to buy into one of those towns doesn't make you middle class. Blame your parents for dying and not leaving you a million bucks.

Going somewhat more on-topic:
I agree with the basic premise of the Globe article. The housing price run-up of the last 30 years is not going to repeat. The median person can't afford to buy into the housing market. I think what will happen is the high demand places will continue to go up in price since the supply is so limited. The towns with the crap school systems likely won't even track the inflation rate. The only thing that could change that is some kind of massive state education reform law where living in a town with Zillow 5 schools doesn't condemn your children to having to attend them. Competitive charter schools would certainly do it if the state can get them by the teacher's unions. School vouchers would also do it. The per-pupil average in Massachusetts is $14K. If you could stuff your kid in a private school using that $14K to pay for a big chunk of the tuition, you'd see competitive private schools springing up everywhere. The towns would have nobody but the kids who don't want the learn and the special ed problems that are crippling the education system.

[Whatsnext75]

Originally Posted by Parsec

This is a very small sample size, but everyone I know who left MA was not earning the big bucks. In fact, they all dreamed of living in a McMansion but could only afford the bottom unit of a triple decker in Arlington. Hence, they moved down South and bought a McMansion for $250k. Their commutes got worse because sprawl is bad down South, they spend more money on gas, and their electricity bill tripled. They also complain about all the strip malls and the 4 hour drive to get to the beach. Every area has its pros and cons, but I personally think that the Boston area it's well worth the price. I think the only better place to live is the Bay area and that's even more expensive.

Hmm, I work in Cambridge at a tech start up and I see the engineers leaving ALL THE TIME for please CA, Seattle and Austin where they get a better paying job and will be getting much better weather and a bigger nicer house for a LOT less. Sorry, but Boston isn't necessarily the place where the rich and well off are flocking to. Many people do move here for jobs but they dont always stay. Sure there are rich people who are from here, moved here and will stay here but it's naive/ignorant to think that anyone who is doing well will stay.

Complaining about the 4 hour drive to the beach? How about complaining about a 1.5 hour drive to work both ways which many in this area deal with. The beach isnt for everyone.

I will never leave Boston, I was born and raised here, it's my home, but this place isnt what it used to be. It's exploded and the city just cant handle all the people.

'In fact, they all dreamed of living in a McMansion but could only afford the bottom unit of a triple decker in Arlington.'

Can you blame them? My boss does quite well and she was not happy with what a million dollar home could get her close to Boston, particularly Newton. She moved to Cohassett. Much worse commute, and I cant say Cohasset is too shabby...but even well off people arent happy with pricing around boston.

[Parsec]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Meh. "Middle class" is meaningless.

The median household income in Massachusetts is about $67,000.

Norfolk county is the highest median household income county at about $85,000.

Using the old school 28%/33% numbers, $85,000 can afford $24,000 in mortgage, taxes, and insurance. With 20% down, that's a $450-ishK house. That won't get you a big house in a Zillow 9+ school system town inside 495 where all the 1%-ers are buying but it gets you a middle class house in an outer suburb with access to commuter rail. $67K would also get you into one of those towns though with a lesser house.

There's a major flaw in your thought process. 2/3 of the people living in MA already own a house and no longer "need" a certain income to buy the same house at today's prices. For example a 55-year old earning the median of $85k might have purchased a house for $250k 25 years ago when he was earning $45k. Now that same house is worth $600k and he can't afford to buy it at his $85k salary, but that doesn't matter to him because his $1500/mo mortgage is 5 years away from being paid off.

I don't have any data to back this up, but I am fairly certain that the median income of today's homebuyers is much higher than $67k/year. Also, that $67k/year includes the 1/4 or 1/3 of MA residents that will never earn enough money to buy a house so you need to back out their income from the data too.

[Whatsnext75]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Going somewhat more on-topic:
I agree with the basic premise of the Globe article. The housing price run-up of the last 30 years is not going to repeat. The median person can't afford to buy into the housing market. I think what will happen is the high demand places will continue to go up in price since the supply is so limited. The towns with the crap school systems likely won't even track the inflation rate. The only thing that could change that is some kind of massive state education reform law where living in a town with Zillow 5 schools doesn't condemn your children to having to attend them. Competitive charter schools would certainly do it if the state can get them by the teacher's unions. School vouchers would also do it. The per-pupil average in Massachusetts is $14K. If you could stuff your kid in a private school using that $14K to pay for a big chunk of the tuition, you'd see competitive private schools springing up everywhere. The towns would have nobody but the kids who don't want the learn and the special ed problems that are crippling the education system.

No idea on the state education reform law, but I'm not so sure about your thoughts on only the in demand places staying in demand. I think what's happening now is that many people cant afford these in demand places so they are moving to more affordable places in the area of the in demand places which is causing prices to go up. Places like Quincy, Dorchester, Medford, and Braintree are all places that are just meh that people are moving to because they might not be exactly what they want but they're close enough. People are even chancing it on Roxbury (well they're at least renting there) Look at places like Arlington, Somerville and Roslindale. No one wanted to live there 10 years ago, now they are highly desired. I see this continuing to happen.

I dont know how much higher housing in a place like Quincy or Dot can get...places will probably stabilize, but closer less desirable areas will increase.

My husband is thinking of buying a place in Hyde Park at the moment. It seems to be the one area of Boston where you can get a cheaper house and I just dont see it lasting. It's close to JP, West Roxbury, but yet doesnt have a reputation of Mattapan or Roxbury. Dorchester still gets a bad rap, but it's becoming quite popular again.

[Boston_Burbs]

Originally Posted by Dm84

Not everyone can afford to make that move, and that is the problem.

Except my monthly expenses decreased because of the move due to cutting out other costly expenses that were not house related.

I think people focus too much on the house price and dont take into account the total cost of commuting and other expenses in the ex-burbs. Also, people have ridiculous expectations when it comes to what they need in a house. I ended up in a 2 bed, 1000 sf house with one bathroom. Attic is expandable and we will probably do so in 5-10 year but our grandparents lived in homes this small, so why can't we? Our grandparents only had one car, so why cant we?

IMO, people make up this strawman argument in their head of what they require to live with and most of it is BS perpetuated by advertisers.