How much did you spend for heating in the month of december? (Shrewsbury: home, live)

[Dm84]

I have natural gas and I use about 100 therms a month for heat in the winter.

Heat pumps? No way. It goes below zero at least a couple nights a year where I live and routinely drops into the single digits. Let's also remember electricity is obscenely priced in MA.

[wolfgang239]

I looked into installing heat pumps, would have taken many years to recoup the costs in my situation. I put a gas fired steam boiler in for about 20% of the cost of ductless. Unless you own a home that has solar and is very tight/insulated it is a tough call. If you already have a furnace and were considering replacing or installing an A/C at the same time it may make more sense. Something like a Carrier Greenspeed would be sweet, but in this climate you will still want to have resistive strips installed as a safety (and maybe will require an upgraded $ervice, panel or $ubpanel installation once you factor in all the new 240v stuff/solar head end $$$$$).


The problem in New England is that there is a gas constraint during the winter months which causes the cost of electricity to go up. Contracts for utility gas are locked in to make sure there is an adequate supply for heat. Electric generators (which are largely gas fired in New England) then get to fight over the higher wintertime spot market price of gas which can skyrocket with the slightest disturbance or generator going offline. Solar would help offset this but installing those has its own set of logistics as well.

[BostonMike7]

Originally Posted by Dm84

Heat pumps? No way. It goes below zero at least a couple nights a year where I live and routinely drops into the single digits. Let's also remember electricity is obscenely priced in MA.

They are getting much better. My friend does commercial installs and he's done units effective down to -10*F. Pretty impressive.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by Dm84

I have natural gas and I use about 100 therms a month for heat in the winter.

Heat pumps? No way. It goes below zero at least a couple nights a year where I live and routinely drops into the single digits. Let's also remember electricity is obscenely priced in MA.

I think this is a common problem with american made heat pump (for the most part) which are only good until ~30F or so. Places like Japan do have heat pump technology that goes all the way down to ~ -20F with 100% nominal capacity.

It is actually funny because when the heat pump was first installed back in Janurary 2016 (half of 1st floor was finished and we lived in the house during construction) my parents complained it was too hot and asked me to turn down the temperature. Those were nights with single digit and days with low 10s. Our heat pump have no backup electric heat. When I walked out to the heat pump I could still feel how much colder the exhaust air was (read, really cold) when it was ~10-20F outside.

My unit is rated down to -13F @ 100% nominal capacity. I've seen reviews from people in canada who reported that their heat pump from the same series still operate effectively down to -18F and auto shut down when it gets colder than that... Though no doubt you will see a large hit to efficiency (still much better than electric heat at 100% efficiency with COP >> 1)when heat pump are operating at such a low temperature just because of fundamental physics limitation.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

I looked into installing heat pumps, would have taken many years to recoup the costs in my situation. I put a gas fired steam boiler in for about 20% of the cost of ductless. Unless you own a home that has solar and is very tight/insulated it is a tough call. If you already have a furnace and were considering replacing or installing an A/C at the same time it may make more sense. Something like a Carrier Greenspeed would be sweet, but in this climate you will still want to have resistive strips installed as a safety (and maybe will require an upgraded $ervice, panel or $ubpanel installation once you factor in all the new 240v stuff/solar head end $$$$$).


The problem in New England is that there is a gas constraint during the winter months which causes the cost of electricity to go up. Contracts for utility gas are locked in to make sure there is an adequate supply for heat. Electric generators (which are largely gas fired in New England) then get to fight over the higher wintertime spot market price of gas which can skyrocket with the slightest disturbance or generator going offline. Solar would help offset this but installing those has its own set of logistics as well.

For us the installation cost would have been higher if we went with a gas boiler because of the need to put in air duct. For homes with exisiting air duct it is probably cheaper to just replace an existing furnace / boiler. In addition, we received masscec rebate and masssave 0% heat loan which made it really cheap for us (Everyone should check with masssave and masscec and see what programs are available for energy efficient appliance!)

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by kyva1929

For us the installation cost would have been higher if we went with a gas boiler because of the need to put in air duct. For homes with exisiting air duct it is probably cheaper to just replace an existing furnace / boiler. In addition, we received masscec rebate and masssave 0% heat loan which made it really cheap for us (Everyone should check with masssave and masscec and see what programs are available for energy efficient appliance!)

Boiler = water
Furnace = air

If you have forced hot air, getting a ducted heat pump system can be a bargain if you don't have A/C, since you already have the ducting. Totally depends on the situation but the numbers just aren't there yet for heat pumps here unless your house is super tight or small. Mini split costs install only would have taken me about 20 years to recover, at today's prices. I don't even trust them to last that long.

[BostonMike7]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

Mini split costs install only would have taken me about 20 years to recover, at today's prices. I don't even trust them to last that long.

That's my hesitation as well. I don't trust they will last long, but hopefully I am wrong.


The part I hate is that I can do the install myself, but need a HVAC person to sign off on the install in order to keep the warranty intact. I've then heard horror tales that it doesn't matter anyway because 3-5 years down the road, the company discontinues the product and stops carrying parts for it.


Just going to get a cheap sub $1K unit, install it, and see what happens.

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by BostonMike7

That's my hesitation as well. I don't trust they will last long, but hopefully I am wrong.


The part I hate is that I can do the install myself, but need a HVAC person to sign off on the install in order to keep the warranty intact. I've then heard horror tales that it doesn't matter anyway because 3-5 years down the road, the company discontinues the product and stops carrying parts for it.


Just going to get a cheap sub $1K unit, install it, and see what happens.

I looked into this as well, you need someone with a vacuum pump, micron gauges, some expensive tools and a refrigerant license to charge it up after installation. And as you said, for warranty coverage. The cheap-o ones come with precharged line sets but still room for error.

[mdovell]

$0 heat is included with the rent. The other odd part is the heater for the complex is directly under my apartment. As a result I have instant hot water 24/7 out of the sinks (kitchen and bathroom (but not the shower). I have steam in seconds.

Western Mass has much more in access to natural gas. Of course saying that there was the explosion years ago.
Natural Gas Explosion Levels MA Strip Club Video - ABC News

In retrospect I don't think the city needed that strip club.

I had a conversation with some from brockton on this issue a month ago. One admitted to paying $900 a month for electric heat in the winter. I don't understand electric heat. Grew up with oil heat and hated that but electric prices..forget it.

[Dm84]

Originally Posted by mdovell

$0 heat is included with the rent. The other odd part is the heater for the complex is directly under my apartment. As a result I have instant hot water 24/7 out of the sinks (kitchen and bathroom (but not the shower). I have steam in seconds.

Western Mass has much more in access to natural gas. Of course saying that there was the explosion years ago.
Natural Gas Explosion Levels MA Strip Club Video - ABC News

In retrospect I don't think the city needed that strip club.

I had a conversation with some from brockton on this issue a month ago. One admitted to paying $900 a month for electric heat in the winter. I don't understand electric heat. Grew up with oil heat and hated that but electric prices..forget it.

Electric heat is very efficient; it just takes a lot of electricity to get hot.

Anyone paying $900/month is setting their thermostat to the upper 70's and leaving it there 24/7. Few people in Brockton can swing that kind of cash so either the person you spoke to is full of **** or they have extenuating circumstances that prevents National Grid from disconnecting them for non-payment.