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These stats are overweight to Boston and Massachusetts relative to population. Similar to area crime statistics. Boston is a far more dangerous city than others per capita. Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Walk around Boston enough and you may begin to believe you are being conditioned to distrust cross walk signals. Motorists see yellow lights as a challenge and red lights as suggestions.
Any excitement in Cambridge is not lasting. Mass Ave is where it's at and it's a 24/7 logjam. Central Square is a dump. Harvard Square is overrun by foreign tourists. There is nothing grand or impressive, just limited options. After a handful of visits, you've been to all the good places, and then what - Faneuil Hall? It's rinky dink.
4. The beaches named by travel channel are Nantucket and MV, and the ones in Nantucket are pretty nice - I'll give you that. They're also very unique - nay, out of place for Massachusetts. But unless you pull in $300k/yr, that mortgage in Wellesley is going to make it hard to scrape together the fcf to spend more than an afternoon or two on either island, though MV is rightly considerably cheaper.
The beaches on mainland Mass - from Plum Island to Pegawty (or maybe you meant Smith Beach in Braintree - the Gem of the Rivierer) - are absolute dumps, and those in Cape Cod - Wianno to Sandy Neck to Nauset - are cute, but crowded and cold, and the tourists that pack them are as coarse as the sand. It's just not all that much fun. You see a lot of people drinking on these beaches and not many in the water, probably because it's the most fun one can have. It's like Russian beaches - just when it starts getting too hot to stay on land, the water's still too cold for a swim. Thank Long Island for pushing away the Gulf Stream.
Maine is a great place to vacation. We got engaged on top of Pemetic Mountain, and ate at Grace in Portland a couple times. There's also a fantastic hole-in-the wall German breakfast spot on Cumberland Ave called Schulte & Herr. Check it out.
And the White Mountains are nice, but you can't really compare them to the Adirondacks - unless you've never been in the Adirondacks, which goes back to the problem of provincialism and 5 star rated Massachusetts pizza chains. But if you've never fished from a Whiticar or a Bayliss or a Buddy Davis or Merritt, you might think Grady White's are tops and stumble into a gun fight with your butter knife.
I've explored quite a bit through the White Mountains (logged just under 1k mi of the AT, sailed the ICW up and down). You never get the same sense of wilderness and escape as in the Adirondacks. I don't think you can spend 2 weeks in the White Mountains without seeing a trace of another human. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Preserve_(New_York) New York's Forest Preserve is all the land owned by the state within the Adirondack and Catskill parks, managed by its Department of Environmental Conservation. These properties are required to be kept "forever wild" by Article 14 of the state constitution, and thus enjoy the highest degree of protection of wild lands in any state...Currently there are more than 2.6 million acres (11,000 km2) of Forest Preserve in the Adirondacks and 287,514 acres (1,164 km2) in the Catskills.
Manhattan is still an option, but that goes back to the "one road in, one road out" problem. Having driven a few white-knuckle-bumper-to-bumper miles on I-84 to I-90 / I-95 through New England, you get the feeling you're not alone seeking a little weekend excitement somewhere else.
To Chicago Liz, I think the Philly towns are more preferable to Massachusetts just on the basis of friendliness, fun, a more vibrant city, and access to different experiences outside the city - whether that's found from Cape May to Red Bank, New Hope to the Delaware Water Gap, or Lititz to Gettysburg to Baltimore to DC. But that'll have to wait: we're looking at houses around Katonah this weekend.
Thanks for the article and statistics from 2006. You successfully compared the single safest metro (NYC) to the 9th (Bos). Yes, this data is weighted by population on a per/capita basis. https://www.safewise.com/blog/safest-metro-cities/
Your opinion of Cambridge is laughable. More culture in it's pinky than the best suburb of almost any metro. What would you compare it to in Philadelphia? And if Central Square is a dump, I can't even imagine what you think of some of the hip neighborhoods in Philadelphia or even some in Brooklyn.
The beaches on mainland Mass are dumps. Got it. You are awfully high brow for a guy who consider Horsham an unbeatable place to live. Regardless, the beaches down the Cape are too crowded as well? There is 560 miles of usable coastline on the cape alone. That gripe means that there are a lottttt of people vacationing on the Cape. I must go on the off-weekends throughout the summer considering I've never had that issue outside of Old Silver. Even if you want to avoid the Cape Cod crowds, you'd call Crane Beach a dump? And Singing Beach? And Horseneck? What about Plymouth?
As for your banter on the White Mountains, to you I'd say: Go further. Go elsewhere. If it's isolation you desire, VT is the least populated state in the US. It's also the prettiest state east of the Mississippi. Or, you can very easily find nature and seclusion in Maine. Head north of Sebago, and there you go. Provincialism in the same breathe as the Adirondacks does not apply considering it's closer to Boston than anywhere you're talking about coming from/moving too. So, yes I've been. As have a good majority of folks in Massachusetts. Growing up, we used to spend weeks on Lake George with our friends in town who owned a property. The areas not exactly a hidden secret around here. I'll take VT>NH>ME over upstate anyways.
As for the NYC commute complaint. Take a train. You love the idea of public transportation, remember?
I honestly don't think you have a single reasonable complaint other than affordability. Either way, this is fun, and it keeps me entertained at work.
To Chicago Liz, I think the Philly towns are more preferable to Massachusetts just on the basis of friendliness, fun, a more vibrant city, and access to different experiences outside the city - whether that's found from Cape May to Red Bank, New Hope to the Delaware Water Gap, or Lititz to Gettysburg to Baltimore to DC. But that'll have to wait: we're looking at houses around Katonah this weekend.
Eh. I do like the NJ Shore, I probably prefer it to the Cape towns and NE beach towns mostly because the water is warmer, but I can't say they're really that much better. (Except perhaps for the OCNJ Boardwalk. Kids and I love that and I love Manco & Manco's pizza, so perhaps I do have to give the nod to the Philly area in that respect.) New Hope and Gettysburg areas are fine, but not better than places like Newburyport, Portsmouth, and areas in ME, VT and NH. DC -- sure, nice to be able to get there in a few hours, but not really any better than being able to get to NYC from here.
Eh. I do like the NJ Shore, I probably prefer it to the Cape towns and NE beach towns mostly because the water is warmer, but I can't say they're really that much better. (Except perhaps for the OCNJ Boardwalk. Kids and I love that and I love Manco & Manco's pizza, so perhaps I do have to give the nod to the Philly area in that respect.) New Hope and Gettysburg areas are fine, but not better than places like Newburyport, Portsmouth, and areas in ME, VT and NH. DC -- sure, nice to be able to get there in a few hours, but not really any better than being able to get to NYC from here.
I like OCNJ. Friends on 23rd, 22nd, and both ends of 5th. Others in Avalon and Stone Harbor. Summer runs from early May through October. I’m an LBI guy. The food, the beaches, the laid back vibe. Tuna and marlin fishing, racing catamarans in the bay, the lifeguard competitions, and sugar sand beaches. All those unbelievable sunsets. Haven’t missed a summer. My grandmother turned 87 yesterday and neither has she.
I like OCNJ. Friends on 23rd, 22nd, and both ends of 5th. Others in Avalon and Stone Harbor. Summer runs from early May through October. I’m an LBI guy. The food, the beaches, the laid back vibe. Tuna and marlin fishing, racing catamarans in the bay, the lifeguard competitions, and sugar sand beaches. All those unbelievable sunsets. Haven’t missed a summer. My grandmother turned 87 yesterday and neither has she.
Was on LBI last year and the day was ruined by green heads. I'd never encountered them before -- apparently they don't go to OCNJ. I do know they inhabit some N.E. beaches, as well, though.
Media is not that nice. Blue Bell has no direct route to get to the city, and has no town center or much there. Nice homes, but nothing really there. Manayunk takes more time to get to CC than it should, and really there are only a few streets with much there. Plus, talk about chains -- if a Pottery Barn gets you going, more power to you.
Media, by most folks' standards, is incredibly lovely. Large historic homes, brick sidewalks, tree-lined streets, chock full of great shops/restaurants, direct trolley service IN the center of town. Easily more attractive and vibrant than the vast majority of Boston suburbia.
Phoenixville is up and coming, but the schools leave much to be desired. Plus, it also takes forever to get to CC.
Again, most would disagree re: schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119
It also hosts a population density of ~1500 sq. mile, a median family income of $72k, and a median home value of ~$255.
Considering a 33% COL difference between the Philly/Boston areas, the Horsham median HHI would be $96,000 in Boston terms. I agree that it's not quite on the Needham/Lexington level, but it's considered affluent. https://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingW...ll_Result.aspx
And towns don't necessarily HAVE to have a town center to be considered desirable. I can think of plenty of examples in Massachusetts (e.g., Carlisle, Weston, Harvard, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119
Wayne, Narberth and Ardmore are all nice, although you're reliant on SEPTA to get downtown and frankly SEPTA sucks. If you can afford to live there, especially Narberth and Ardmore, they're the best in the Philly area. I'd say these towns are most comparable to Newton, Wellesley, Needham, Lexington, and Winchester. Frankly, I find the MA towns more desirable, but if I were to move back to Philadelphia, those would be the towns I'd look at. If you think the PA towns are preferable, move there.
My wife, from the Boston area, constantly compared the Main Line to the exact towns you reference when we lived in that area. Let's also not pretend the MBTA is not fraught with delays and many infrastructural challenges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagoliz
Again, if you want to live in the Philadelphia area, you absolutely should do so. It's the best bargain in the northeast. Sadly, though, the best thing about Philadelphia is that it's not that far to New York. But if you're just looking for a decent place to live, it works. The outer towns, though, are not set up like they are here -- very few of them have any real town centers, and mostly they're strip malls and chains, and there is little access to public transit and no walkability.
You've just described the vast majority of Metrowest outside of the 128 corridor. That's how ALL outer suburbs of major cities work; the built environment is simply more sparse/less densely populated. The "walkable" centers of note in the "outer suburbs" of Boston are independent cities that were eventually absorbed into the metro area (e.g., Lawrence, Lowell, Brockton). They're the exception.
And, oh dear. Again with the "no chains in Massachusetts towns" talk. Let's take a look at the Main Street tenants of two prominent and beloved Boston suburbs:
- Paper Source
- Tumi
- J.P. Licks
- Starbucks
- Coldwell Banker
- CVS
- Dunkin' Donuts/Baskin Robbins
- Gap
- More uber-corporate Banks
- B. Good
- Bruegger's Bagels
- Peet's Coffee
These are just two towns with chains/large corporations easily taking up at least half of the tenancy. Not terribly impressive for places that "support independent business."
Here's the thing. There are many fantastic qualities about the Boston suburbs. They have a lot of unique charm and appeal. But here's the things they're not:
- Inherently more supportive of local businesses
- Innately superior to all other suburbs of other major cities
Media, by most folks' standards, is incredibly lovely. Large historic homes, brick sidewalks, tree-lined streets, chock full of great shops/restaurants, direct trolley service IN the center of town. Easily more attractive and vibrant than the vast majority of Boston suburbia.
Considering a 33% COL difference between the Philly/Boston areas, the Horsham median HHI would be $96,000 in Boston terms. I agree that it's not quite on the Needham/Lexington level, but it's considered affluent. https://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingW...ll_Result.aspx
And towns don't necessarily HAVE to have a town center to be considered desirable. I can think of plenty of examples in Massachusetts (e.g., Carlisle, Weston, Harvard, etc.)
My wife, from the Boston area, constantly compared the Main Line to the exact towns you reference when we lived in that area. Let's also not pretend the MBTA is not fraught with delays and many infrastructural challenges.
You've just described the vast majority of Metrowest outside of the 128 corridor. That's how ALL outer suburbs of major cities work; the built environment is simply more sparse/less densely populated. The "walkable" centers of note in the "outer suburbs" of Boston are independent cities that were eventually absorbed into the metro area (e.g., Lawrence, Lowell, Brockton). They're the exception.
And, oh dear. Again with the "no chains in Massachusetts towns" talk. Let's take a look at the Main Street tenants of two prominent and beloved Boston suburbs:
- Paper Source
- Tumi
- J.P. Licks
- Starbucks
- Coldwell Banker
- CVS
- Dunkin' Donuts/Baskin Robbins
- Gap
- More uber-corporate Banks
- B. Good
- Bruegger's Bagels
- Peet's Coffee
These are just two towns with chains/large corporations easily taking up at least half of the tenancy. Not terribly impressive for places that "support independent business."
Here's the thing. There are many fantastic qualities about the Boston suburbs. They have a lot of unique charm and appeal. But here's the things they're not:
- Inherently more supportive of local businesses
- Innately superior to all other suburbs of other major cities
See what you are doing is making sense, and being fair. I don’t think any of us would argue your points. “That’s how all outer suburbs of major cities work” is exactly the point many have made. The OP thinks his overall concerns are specific to Massachusetts, to which we’ve proved time and time again that he’s simply trolling. These are all rebuttles to the OP, not digs on other areas. The OP has (tried) to have a beat down on Boston. His conclusions are that Boston is undesirable, has only chain restraints, terrible transportation, a boring downtown, Cambridge is dumpy, Wellesley is the pinnacle of the suburbs and merely has a Bertuccis, the beaches are dumpy, the people arent well traveled, the weekend trips here are brutal, and many more.
He’s a real peach. Clearly very happy too! Horsham is better than Lexington.
This guy is a blast. A real loss for MA upon review.
Last edited by mwj119; 01-12-2018 at 08:16 PM..
Reason: W
See what you are doing is making sense, and being fair. I don’t think any of us would argue your points. “That’s how all outer suburbs of major cities work” is exactly the point many have made.
Completely understand. I also hate going into defensive mode, but it's something I can't help when I see unfair/innacurate comments being made on all sides.
Truth is, and I'm sometimes guilty of it too, most folks have a hard time being objective. And when we warp our personal preferences/narrow lens into "indisputable fact," it becomes huge barrier to fair and unbiased discourse.
Hi, I am about to move to Boston for work. I will be staying in the Beacon Hill neighborhood when I get there, but I need to find a new place within 3 months. Do you guys have any suggestion? Easy public commute to downtown Boston would be nice (no more than 20~30 mins per trip). I would love to stay in a neighborhood perfect for young family (no kids yet), but hoping to grow a bit. Thanks.
I don't mean to trash on Massachusetts, but the thrust of my original post was that there seem to very few nice affordable suburbs surrounded by other nice affordable suburbs.
Very few "well-established" communities, if - in 2017 - you have to move to an unpleasant place and just have faith like-minded people will pick the same one and wrestle power from Developer Mayors.
There are a lot of pluses for Massachusetts, but my experienced has been like a much colder version of central Florida. Or an uncharming Binghampton. Probably the difference is English and Dutch settlements.
Funny this is how I see NH too.. like East Hillsborough County or Polk county or something with more educational offerings and much colder. And possibly with english and dutch settlements as well as french. I question my future here.. I am only back in New England technically because my mom is moving back.. shes supposed to be going down the Cape but I'm not positive how thats gonna work out for me.. maybe bareable, maybe not. I may determine its a better fit than NH though at the very least.
I totally get where you are coming from. I am from Ohio and married into a Boston townie family and it is like nothing even exists south of the cape or west of Northampton. Literally every year of DHs life the only place they went was the cape. His mother went to Florida for the first time at 70.
I think that Bostonites have to pat themselves on the back because the living there is difficult and grim and if they admit that any one thing isn't just awesome, the whole charade starts to fail. The truth is that I am sure at one time is was decent but now the cost of living is just untenable relative to the amenities that Boston has to offer. I know that the price is due to demand, and that demand reinforces Bostonites "Hub of the universe" delusion, but that demand is just the demand of the ignorant for the right to overpay until they too become disillusioned and move on. I did it, you will do it, everyone I know is doing it. You can only fight the fight so long before you wise up and hit the road.
The people that will argue with you are people in their 50s or older, who were first time homeowners early enough that they have been able to leverage and benefit from the housing market. Anyone younger is scrabbling for scraps or works in big pharma. We have friends a few years older who bought their first home in 1996 and have ridden that housing market into a million dollar house with a 100k mortgage while earning 100k a year between them. To them Boston is great and why would anyone leave.
Contrast that with my MIL's neighbors who scraped up 5% to buy across the street from her and work three jobs between them and have the kids in before AND aftercare (at their last choice Boston Public School) who still need my MIL three days a week to pick the kids up from aftercare because their commutes to/from Roslindale don't enable them to get home in time. That is a dog's life, but they are from "heah" and will go down with the ship because their myopic worldview doesn't allow for the possibility that there are other, non-Boston options.
As I said before, we left, my townie DH couldn't be happier and MIL is moving here when she cashes out of Boston. The end of an era.
This. I am from the area, Billerica/Chelmsford to be more exact.. its home, also home to some of the best eateries in the united states BUT there is a cost to it all. If you cant afford any top tier town, you're scrambling for scraps kind of like in South Florida. The east truthfully and a lot of the oversaturated west just do not have opportunity anymore really. Some people think because its newer money in some places out west that there is, even in the most expensive spots. While I probably wouldnt head out west again, I can say with certainty that New England not just MA or Boston is harder to make it in, pay rent in or own a house than ever before unless you want to be far from things or be in a hellhole.
I lived in CA, OR, FL, PA when leaving New England and was reminded why Boston area was home but you know something.. it was the facade of New England that brought me back here despite all my feelings of alienation from not being from certain other places I been to. I have a few regrets though.. I didnt stay longer in some of them, like East Sacramento which I liked very much. That now has a lot of tree lined streets and nice parts, but my mom was in a rental house and decided to leave after 8 months or so. I lived there for 5 months, Portland for 3, then came back to a new house in an outer Sac suburb. Back to MA.. I moved around so damn much I feel like a traveling irish gypsy. For some reason though, my stay in NH for the last 4 months got me reflecting some.. its tecnically or should be a free state, I came here for that reason but other ****ty things make up for the few more freedoms you may have, which arent really a ton more than in MA btw and there is tax. Another facade, the free state garbage they like to talk about.
I came to a determination that the realest places in this nation are not NY and Boston so much, but I would go all out to say Texas, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, maybe Kansas City area. I'd say avoid the great north (Upper NY, Upper NH, Northern ME area) and the deep south (SC, NC, LA, MS), SW FL, South FL and a portion of California although can be real when you get out of higher cost yuppie areas. The deep south and great north correlate in my experience and come out to the same result. One just has southern hospitality, the other has high costs and distant people to where it can feel isolating as well. Although one plus is you feel why its more expensive sometimes, the quality schools could reflect it or more intellectual types overall, but other than stuff like that, its really the same result and you start to realize why you left in the first place. Many parts of the northeast dont like newcomers just like in the deep south. When the cops up here in NH profile others with different license plates, I dont see how thats any different than what you see in Deliverance, just with a little more education.
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