U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-20-2018, 11:17 AM
 
13,874 posts, read 7,386,288 times
Reputation: 25356

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Seriously? Come on. It's the Boston region that is wealthy. Not all the people living in the actual city, which is pretty small. You know this. You have to know this.
Nah. He lives in some alternate universe where Springfield is actually a desirable place. I think Spock has a goatee in that alternate universe. He's citing Amherst, of all places, as the most ghetto spot in the state to defend Springfield. I guess they're still drinking PBR at the keg parties.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-20-2018, 02:07 PM
 
4,125 posts, read 4,137,432 times
Reputation: 2308
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
. Unless you qualify for low income or disability subsidies, Boston is exceptionally expensive. It's either rich or poor in Boston. No middle class. Someone making $60k in Boston might have to live with roommates. Someone making $60k in Springfield can own a home in a nice area. The trick is finding a $60k job in Springfield. In Boston, there are plenty and for a college grad, it's worth stretching thin on the COL front to kickstart a career with a good job in an economic hub.
The issue is the sustainability of Boston. Look Gateway cities found out the hard way what it was like to rely mostly one or two industries and then see them decline. Springfield was the armory BRAC'd back in '65. Heck Weymouth was 30 years later, Holyoke was paper, Brockton was shoes, Lowell/Lawrence/Lynn was textiles, Taunton was silver, New Bedford and Fall river whale oil and then fishing, Pittsfield was GE and then SABIC. We all know what happened after the industries declined, there's no mystery.

I'm just using actual stats here. It's a bit hypocritical though to try to say that an area that has expanded though annexation (Hyde Park, East Boston, Roxbury, Dorchester, West Roxbury, South Boston, Brighton, Allston and Charlestown) is being judged against another city of which has spun places off (west springfield, Holyoke, Agawam, Ludlow, Chicopee etc). If everything that springfield was put together like Boston it would have well over 300,000 people. (Chicopee 55K, Holyoke 40K, Agawam 28K w.springfield 28K etc)

If I tried to argue to lump in the Longmeadows I'm sure some would argue that it isn't "springfield" well yeah now it isn't but come on you can't have it both ways.

Again Boston has everything soup to nuts imported. Now if Boston Public Schools had a graduation rate of 90%, if the average Boston income was above $45,000 maybe I could say something different. When people from the suburbs go into Boston at best they are staying by the rail lines and not buses. They are apt to go Fenway, Back Bay, the Common etc. Rail certainly causes property values to increase I think we can all agree on that.

"Seriously? Come on. It's the Boston region that is wealthy. Not all the people living in the actual city, which is pretty small. You know this. You have to know this."

Since when is 687K people a small number? The Boston metro area is 4.6 million. Approximately 14% How is 14% a small number? Obviously it isn't indicative of a district in the 128 belt but you have to admit the fact that Metco still exists 50 years later....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 03:06 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
19,828 posts, read 18,832,665 times
Reputation: 33723
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell View Post
The issue is the sustainability of Boston. Look Gateway cities found out the hard way what it was like to rely mostly one or two industries and then see them decline. Springfield was the armory BRAC'd back in '65. Heck Weymouth was 30 years later, Holyoke was paper, Brockton was shoes, Lowell/Lawrence/Lynn was textiles, Taunton was silver, New Bedford and Fall river whale oil and then fishing, Pittsfield was GE and then SABIC. We all know what happened after the industries declined, there's no mystery.

I'm just using actual stats here. It's a bit hypocritical though to try to say that an area that has expanded though annexation (Hyde Park, East Boston, Roxbury, Dorchester, West Roxbury, South Boston, Brighton, Allston and Charlestown) is being judged against another city of which has spun places off (west springfield, Holyoke, Agawam, Ludlow, Chicopee etc). If everything that springfield was put together like Boston it would have well over 300,000 people. (Chicopee 55K, Holyoke 40K, Agawam 28K w.springfield 28K etc)

If I tried to argue to lump in the Longmeadows I'm sure some would argue that it isn't "springfield" well yeah now it isn't but come on you can't have it both ways.

Again Boston has everything soup to nuts imported. Now if Boston Public Schools had a graduation rate of 90%, if the average Boston income was above $45,000 maybe I could say something different. When people from the suburbs go into Boston at best they are staying by the rail lines and not buses. They are apt to go Fenway, Back Bay, the Common etc. Rail certainly causes property values to increase I think we can all agree on that.

"Seriously? Come on. It's the Boston region that is wealthy. Not all the people living in the actual city, which is pretty small. You know this. You have to know this."

Since when is 687K people a small number? The Boston metro area is 4.6 million. Approximately 14% How is 14% a small number? Obviously it isn't indicative of a district in the 128 belt but you have to admit the fact that Metco still exists 50 years later....
While I don't usually agree with you, I will have to concur that we would all probably be better off if we stuck together as one state. If our dear capital city offered a leg up to the rest of the state, they wouldn't be sitting around resenting how much they have to "subsidize" the rest of us. Looks like they feel more comfortable throwing a few crumbs to "the poor" out in the western part of the state and getting to feel smug about helping us, the underprivileged.

But the politicians live in EMass, not the western part of the state. We are an afterthought except when we are needed for one reason or another. That's understandable but not too smart. Someday EMass will run out of space or resources, or things may implode. It is not wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Invest in other parts of the state and someday, when you need it, we will be well equipped to help you out. I know, right now it seems like the earth is flat and if you were to sail beyond 495, you might fall right off the edge.

But think outside the box and you might realize that it's smarter to invest in this area. We have the remaining bones of the old cities, we have the population, we have the higher ed facilities with graduates who would love to stay here and work, we have SPACE for more people to live and fill more jobs. Give it a try--it's not some mysterious, scary, unexplored foreign country. It's your own state!
__________________
my posts as moderator will be in red. Moderator: Health&Wellness~Genealogy. The Rules--read here>>> TOS. If someone attacks you, do not reply. Hit REPORT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 04:01 PM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,151,966 times
Reputation: 32409
They do invest in the area. Good God. Oodles of money are thrown in the area compared to the size, the population, and the return.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 06:10 PM
 
4,125 posts, read 4,137,432 times
Reputation: 2308
The other thing is frankly you don't have to go overseas to lower costs. I've toured factories in China and yes costs were quite low 20 years ago but not so much now. Dan Gilbert almost moved Quicken Loans to Brazil but went to Detroit instead. The costs of translation, moving, time differences, legal differences added up.

Development can take time but it can happen. I have family in the midwest and back in '01 you wouldn't go to Over the Rhine. This is one of the stories that was overshadowed by 9/11 later that year but there was a riot in Cinncinatti.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ization-213969

Some have argued with in other areas about gentrification. At first I was reluctant but then the more I looked online for "signs of gentrification" quite a bit fit.

Yoga Studios? check

"Vintage" stores coming in? check - a few in the city center already
www.facebook.com/CharlenesBoutique1/ and another one on state street

Commissioned street art? check
hwww.thereminder.com/localnews/springfield/new-mural-on-aw-gifford-building-adds-color-to-dow/

Construction everywhere? check

Increased police presence
Nextdoor app launched

Bike sharing services? Shortly
RESILIENT SPRINGFIELD | Our Progress Towards a Thriving, Resilient Future

Bike lanes? In the works
RESILIENT SPRINGFIELD | Our Progress Towards a Thriving, Resilient Future

More diverse restaurants beyond the typical Italian/Chinese etc
Vegan http://www.facebook.com/Garden-of-Ea...5919694804583/
Afghan https://www.yelp.com/biz/le-souk-hoo...-springfield-2

More coffee shops? Cafe du jour, cornerstone cafe, mocha emporium, two more starbucks by this fall and one roastery

Government housing being torn down? Yes.
Springfield slates South End demolition for Marble Street extension | masslive.com

Increased access to grocery delivery? Yes - Instacart started last year
Instacart grocery shopping service comes to Greater Springfield | masslive.com

Small dogs replacing larger dogs? Check - There's a dog park being discussed currently.
Volunteers Eager To Tackle Environmental Issues, Create First Dog Park In Springfield | WAMC

Sidewalks start improving. A backlog going back decades is now funded.
Springfield City Council approves $12.7 million for sidewalks, trucks, new food service center | masslive.com

New schools opening.
A new charter one planned at the Shriners building. Veritas, Bay State, MLK, Commonwealth Academy and Sabis already exist. Pope Francis high opens this fall.
Recruitment event to offer sneak preview of Pope Francis High School in Springfield | masslive.com

Access to art is made easier.
$3.5 million from state to help resurrect Pynchon Plaza in downtown Springfield | masslive.com

More public transit CT rail will expand service to Hartford and beyond. MassDOT has talked about making more service north going to Holyoke, Northampton and Greenfield.

History starts being restored.
Photos: Plans revealed for $32 million transformation of Springfield's Paramount Theater and Massasoit Block into boutique hotel | masslive.com

I see people jogging. No they aren't running from someone I mean actual joggers and I don't mean just within Forest Park.

Rents and property values going up. Crime rates going down.

Unofficially I just heard that there are talks to bring a Amazon Locker to the area.

These are all small things and I didn't even mention the casino.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 06:13 PM
 
Location: North Quabbin, MA
802 posts, read 971,753 times
Reputation: 2058
Public transportation is such a mess in MA as a status quo that it’s no surprise rail lines literally take at least a generation to expand service in any way (South Coast Rail, Green Line Extension) and an especially hard sell for Springfield because they’re so fahhhh and apparently an ungrateful parasite of a failed city that deserves to keep festering. The MBTA is a boondoggle and public transportation funding suffers in other regions statewide because of it - in this slice of Mass, PVTA in Springfield is facing service cuts and FRTA around me has been without night or weekend service for years. Until MA gets with the times and gets truly committed to designating a portion of gas tax or sales tax to public transportation, no imaginative geographic expansions will take place and the MBTA will continue to be a disastrously expensive (hopefully not literal) train wreck never able to upgrade its equipment and infrastructure to modernity. Smaller cities and towns will remain egregiously underserved by these options and economically isolated like they deserve for not being able to pull themselves out by the bootstraps - that’s what I’m hearing implied on this forum anyway!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 08:46 PM
 
13,874 posts, read 7,386,288 times
Reputation: 25356
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCMA View Post
Public transportation is such a mess in MA as a status quo that itís no surprise rail lines literally take at least a generation to expand service in any way (South Coast Rail, Green Line Extension) and an especially hard sell for Springfield because theyíre so fahhhh and apparently an ungrateful parasite of a failed city that deserves to keep festering. The MBTA is a boondoggle and public transportation funding suffers in other regions statewide because of it - in this slice of Mass, PVTA in Springfield is facing service cuts and FRTA around me has been without night or weekend service for years. Until MA gets with the times and gets truly committed to designating a portion of gas tax or sales tax to public transportation, no imaginative geographic expansions will take place and the MBTA will continue to be a disastrously expensive (hopefully not literal) train wreck never able to upgrade its equipment and infrastructure to modernity. Smaller cities and towns will remain egregiously underserved by these options and economically isolated like they deserve for not being able to pull themselves out by the bootstraps - thatís what Iím hearing implied on this forum anyway!
Hampden County has 468k people. 26.2% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $51k. 16.5% poverty rate.

Contrast that against Norfolk County. 700k people. 51.2% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $92k. 6.1% poverty rate.

Compare that to Mississippi, the poorest state in the country. 21% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $40,528 but that's with a $7.25 minimum wage instead of an $11.00 minimum wage. 20.8% poverty rate.

Hampden County looks way more like Mississippi than metro Boston. Good jobs aren't going to happen in Mississippi because there is little skilled labor with 21st century job skills. A train to Boston will do nothing. Countless millions have been flung at the region with no impact. It's still a backwater.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 09:13 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
19,828 posts, read 18,832,665 times
Reputation: 33723
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Hampden County has 468k people. 26.2% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $51k. 16.5% poverty rate.

Contrast that against Norfolk County. 700k people. 51.2% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $92k. 6.1% poverty rate.

Compare that to Mississippi, the poorest state in the country. 21% have a bachelor's or higher. Median household income is $40,528 but that's with a $7.25 minimum wage instead of an $11.00 minimum wage. 20.8% poverty rate.

Hampden County looks way more like Mississippi than metro Boston. Good jobs aren't going to happen in Mississippi because there is little skilled labor with 21st century job skills. A train to Boston will do nothing. Countless millions have been flung at the region with no impact. It's still a backwater.
From a previous post that demonstrates the futility of quoting statistics:

As for poverty levels Amherst is the poorest place in the state. North Amherst is at 48%, Amherst center 34%.
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/uni...y/cities#chart


We know that statistics can be skewed to show whatever we want. We know Amherst is not poor. We know the statisticians were counting the income of college kids.

So this whole discussion has turned into a game. You win, we lose. We're no better than Mississippi now.

Boston "throws" money, "flings" money at our poor destitute selves out here in the wild western wilderness of the state. If only they would put some thought into it. Come up with a real plan--trains maybe? What are some of you so afraid of? That some of the well educated people from places like Longmeadow, Northampton, or Wilbraham might give you some competition for jobs? It's one state. Massachusetts. Not Mississippi.
__________________
my posts as moderator will be in red. Moderator: Health&Wellness~Genealogy. The Rules--read here>>> TOS. If someone attacks you, do not reply. Hit REPORT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 09:33 PM
 
Location: North Quabbin, MA
802 posts, read 971,753 times
Reputation: 2058
Wow we’re Mississippi now! Guess I better go smile at my neighbor unlike we do in Mass, marry my cousin, and start a meth lab! Once you’re past 495, it’s a failed state that shall not be mentioned. No use connecting an additional dinky 40 miles by train. One point of my post is that in a TINY TINY TINY state, a forking train to connect outer communities is in fact more realistic than somewhere like Mississippi. But it’s not an option worth even beginning to think about to connect the state’s third largest city due to the nihilist mindset on display here of unbearably smug and provincial eastern Massaholes. They are all SO wise and educated, we must bow and scrape before our clear intellectual and economic superiors who know best.

A train to Boston won’t fix Springfield, but a good train option to anywhere can only help. Springfield to Worcester, option to connect to Natick and Framingham, etc. How about a train to UMass, to bring all those pathetic C students back and forth from the burbs?

Last edited by FCMA; 03-20-2018 at 09:47 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-20-2018, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Shoreline Connecticut
269 posts, read 173,974 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_General View Post
Are that may people going to want to take 2-3 hour train ride twice a day 5 times a week from Springfield to Boston? I took the 1:20 train ride from Worcester to South Station before I moved, it sucked. Is the Springfield area that much cheaper that the Worcester Area to make it worth it? 4-6 hours on a train out of your 24 hour day is a long time.
I do not know the situation in Metro Boston area. Long commute is quite common in Greater NYC area.

I live in New Haven area, actually east of New Haven and commuted to Manhattan Harlem for a year last year, 4 days of week. Door to door is 2 and half hours one way. Commuting on Metro North is not that bad, just play cell phone or laptop in train, maybe do some work on cell data line.

Now I work in Stamford CT and many of my office colleagues commute from Long Island or New Jersey for the commuting time probably on 2 to 3 hours one way. Tech jobs do not require 5 days week, 2 to 3 days on site in office is enough. The rest week can work from home on laptop. It is still doable for some group of people for sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top