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Old 08-22-2018, 11:42 AM
 
405 posts, read 162,003 times
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
We're paying for it one way or the other. It's cheaper to pay for it upfront to prevent it, but hey, people in the U.S. are all about "my money, my money" and "they're not my kids, not my responsibility".


I don't know if it's a case of greedy people who don't want to spend the money. If you look at the state average per student cost of 15,000 and compare it to Longmeadow, which has what could be considered an excellent school system, their average is 13,600. Springfield's cost per student is $15,600



Teachers in Longmeadow go from a low of $47,000 to a high of $62,000, whereas Springfield teachers have a low of $51,000 and a high of $$67,000


I'd say the biggest factors are that a good number of Springfield students come from homes where English is not spoken, so little help is available.


The problems with Springfield's poor are not unique. It's the percentages of poor that are alarming. The world over, poorer people have more children than the middle class and up, and it's not for the common theory of inceasing welfare payments. Countries with no relief systems in place are the same - those with fewer resources have the most children. Of course the numbers of poor people are going to keep rising. Neither is it a case of education - everyone is well aware of what makes babies and they can see what happens to others in their families and communities with multiple children.


Having never been high income, myself, I have lived in a lot of low income areas. The dynamics of single mother families are so routine, that it's just normal and generational. When the 16 year old daughter gets pregnant it just part of life.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:00 PM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
38,460 posts, read 28,445,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
Having never been high income, myself, I have lived in a lot of low income areas. The dynamics of single mother families are so routine, that it's just normal and generational. When the 16 year old daughter gets pregnant it just part of life.

There is a lot more too it than that. I really don't want to go down that path again, but this book by Kathryn Edin (and others) really touch base on why it is often a conscious decision that makes sense to poor women:


https://www.amazon.com/Promises-Can-.../dp/B005T5O9QW


It seem counterintuitive to me coming from a borderline upper middle class family (upper middle class town, but my mom was widowed and a nurse, so, you know...) where we had certain assumptions, school, college, good career, marriage, children that made sense... get your education, job, fiscal house in order, then procreate. But those assumptions don't hold for all communities.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:45 PM
 
17,448 posts, read 9,748,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
I don't know if it's a case of greedy people who don't want to spend the money. If you look at the state average per student cost of 15,000 and compare it to Longmeadow, which has what could be considered an excellent school system, their average is 13,600. Springfield's cost per student is $15,600



Teachers in Longmeadow go from a low of $47,000 to a high of $62,000, whereas Springfield teachers have a low of $51,000 and a high of $$67,000


I'd say the biggest factors are that a good number of Springfield students come from homes where English is not spoken, so little help is available.


The problems with Springfield's poor are not unique. It's the percentages of poor that are alarming. The world over, poorer people have more children than the middle class and up, and it's not for the common theory of inceasing welfare payments. Countries with no relief systems in place are the same - those with fewer resources have the most children. Of course the numbers of poor people are going to keep rising. Neither is it a case of education - everyone is well aware of what makes babies and they can see what happens to others in their families and communities with multiple children.


Having never been high income, myself, I have lived in a lot of low income areas. The dynamics of single mother families are so routine, that it's just normal and generational. When the 16 year old daughter gets pregnant it just part of life.
Most of the students in Springfield are special needs in one way or another. In Longmeadow, you could use uncertified new grads as teachers and you’d have the same outcome. The relatively few students in the Longmeadow system who have special needs get a ton of one-on-one. That’s simply not possible in Springfield.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
The issue is the U.S. has incredibly low social mobility. It is very uncommon for a person to say, be born into poverty in the U.S. and move up to middle class, or middle class to upper class. Scandinavia (pretty much all of it), Finland, Canada, Japan, Germany, New Zealand and on and on have better opportunities to improve one's lot in life than the U.S.
It depends on culture. Asians come to the US dirt poor. The elite colleges have to discriminate against them with admissions or most of the entering class would be Asian. We’re tolerant of really lousy parenting in this country.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:57 PM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
It depends on culture. Asians come to the US dirt poor. The elite colleges have to discriminate against them with admissions or most of the entering class would be Asian. We’re tolerant of really lousy parenting in this country.


It doesn't just depend on culture. It's largely social structure, economic structure, tax structure... all of which work against social mobility in our society.


Some Asian immigrants come here and do well, but these immigrants aren't coming from a representative sample of the society. When you look at Asian communities that have come from a broader pool of society, say Cambodians, they haven't done as well. Can't use self selecting groups to prove a trend.
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
It depends on culture. Asians come to the US dirt poor. The elite colleges have to discriminate against them with admissions or most of the entering class would be Asian. We’re tolerant of really lousy parenting in this country.

I agree. I once had a small store in a poor neighborhood. Next door to me was a tiny Chinese restaurant. The owners worked from 6am until 11pm. I often hung out there talking to the father (as well as we could) They had two kids, an elementary age and a baby. The bus would drop the oldest off at the restaurant. There was a cot rigged up in a little cupboard where she would take a nap and then sit with her mother (who spoke no English) at one of the two tables, to do homework for hours. I got the feeling that the mother was learning along with her child. It was quite touching to see. That was about 12 years ago. I bet that little girl is in university now.



At the X in Springfield, there are quite a few Vietnamese. When I drove by, I'd see the mothers in their traditional dress waiting with their kids at the bus stop. There was quite a problem with the Vietnamese children getting bullied and beaten up in school. It must have been horrible for the mothers who spoke little English and probably knew little about American ways to send their kids off knowing that it wouldn't be easy for them. In Asia, too, it's general that teachers are treated with the highest respect. Must be quite a shock to see how opposite it is in some of our schools. It's not an accident, at all, that Asian children excel.

Last edited by IWLC; 08-22-2018 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
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I, for one, am looking forward to planning a little Springfield weekend trip probably in 2 weeks. Suggestions welcome.
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:43 PM
 
405 posts, read 162,003 times
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
There is a lot more too it than that. I really don't want to go down that path again, but this book by Kathryn Edin (and others) really touch base on why it is often a conscious decision that makes sense to poor women:


I can tell you a first hand story and I have seen similar over and over. Not part of a study, or a book written by a probably upper class, educated writer. I dind't study people, I lived with them. It was my neighborhood and my neighbors who I saw every day.


The family was the father, mother, 4 daughters (one who had moved away), a son who had a mental disability and the old grandfather. The two youngest daughters had babies at 16 (some rumors and speculation as to who the father was). With the old father's Social Security and the various other benefits coming in, they did ok financially. The father also made additional income selling percosetts which he got from several doctors (actually, when the parents ultimately moved to Florida, dad showed up at the emergency room and in getting the ok from Masshealth, they found he had seven doctors). Anyway, I lived next door to them for quite a few years and got along well with all of them - I used to kid them that Alabama would kick them out for being too redneck.


Slowly they started going their separate ways - old grandad died, the son was in jail (his case made UPI https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2014/05...1181399397192/ )the daughters moved with their toddlers and the mother (who was a serious alcoholic) and father with no support checks coming in were evicted and were living in a tent by the Chicopee river. Last I heard they were in Jacksonville.


Anyway, I tell that story because this is the turmoil many lower income children grow up in. Though I believe the parents are borderline mentally retarded, they knew how to survive and manage their, very complicated lives. I can't even imagine how a child survives that, let alone rises above it.


As a footnote, I actually liked living in lower income neighborhoods. In this particular one, my street had people from two Latin countries, a young Polish family across the street a couple of Black families an Indian family and several retirees. I knew every person on my street because few ever moved and I was there for 12 years. If people think poor people go about their days in misery, they are mistaken. They might struggle financially, but they have a hell of a good time with each other and their families.

Last edited by IWLC; 08-22-2018 at 02:25 PM..
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
I, for one, am looking forward to planning a little Springfield weekend trip probably in 2 weeks. Suggestions welcome.

Well, we aren't Boston, but we do have a few things to see right in the downtown area (not much outside of it). If you're doing the casino, the basketball Hall of Fame is close by, as are the museums. Red Rose Pizza is the best in town, and (because they were wise and didn't move when MGM was building, are actually almost part of the casino complex now). Another restaurant I really like is Theodores - BBQ and New Orleans and they someties have blues bands come through.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:31 PM
 
10,795 posts, read 10,748,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
Well, we aren't Boston, but we do have a few things to see right in the downtown area (not much outside of it). If you're doing the casino, the basketball Hall of Fame is close by, as are the museums. Red Rose Pizza is the best in town, and (because they were wise and didn't move when MGM was building, are actually almost part of the casino complex now). Another restaurant I really like is Theodores - BBQ and New Orleans and they someties have blues bands come through.
Wouldn't the Big E be in town in 2 weeks?
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