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Old 08-23-2018, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
No need to be so mean to them. More social workers, more incentives to get jobs. I would never want to take away EBT or tv or even phones. I think there need to be more limits on the free money, like no increase in money when they have another kid. But some will find a way to get around that, like selling drugs.

You can't punish the kids, that is why we need to change to a needs based system over a cash based one like we have now. Don't provide them money. Give them food. Give them cloths (from Salvation Army, Goodwill). Give them healthcare, childcare, job training. That's not being mean. I certainly am not getting any of that stuff for free. I don't have cable, pay $45/mo for a prepaid phone plan and never had more than a $30 or $40 Walmart phone. Didn't have a proper smart phone until 2014. I earn probably 4 times their income and am not entitled to any of that stuff, no reason they can't live without it too. Point is if they can afford such luxuries as that, then they don't need the rest of us helping with the basics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Mostly, there needs to be early intervention (but that's never going to happen.) The very young kids need to have positive role models and be raised to want to learn and go to school. Not raised with drugs or alcohol or violence. I think some of us "solved it" one time on P&OC forum by suggesting a daycare facility that would take the kids at a very young age and keep them all day long. The parent would be forced to get training and then a job. BUT one reason they stay on welfare is to get health insurance. Their entry level or part time jobs aren't going to provide health insurance

So if we get health insurance for all, then the single parent could work and not lose the insurance. They would have no excuse for not working. They wouldn't be worried about their kids because the kids would be in a really good daycare--not some dumb, cheap daycare, but something that was well designed to teach them how to become productive members of society. It comes off sounding like some sort of dictatorship that takes kids away though. But that's the only way. If they are raised by someone from the dregs of society who doesn't know better, there is no chance they will succeed in overcoming their upbringing.

They will almost always keep their Mass Health with an entry level job at least, most certainly the kids will. Once their income starts exceeding that level, there are other options like the Commonwealth Connector. But at that point, most employers do offer something. Some people aren't aware of this stuff, maybe it should be advertised a little more. And no the early intervention will never happen.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post

More social workers? They can't find people who want to do those jobs now.
Well maybe if they got paid what they are actually worth...
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Failed in that it found very few positive tests and costs a lot of money. If you want to spend more money for no net benefit, that's fine. I do not. It has mostly been related to TANF benefits, and on average the states that have tried it have a less than 1% positive rate and spend an incredible amount on it. It's wasting money. I don't like wasting money to deter people from doing things that aren't an issue.

If it acts as a deterrent and changes behavior (more particularly the well being of the kids), then I say spending the money is worth it. Maybe that 1% would be much higher were they not random testing, IDK. I'd like to see a more in depth study done, not sure if it could be done accurately though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
I've never seen anything indicating that Mass is a high drug use state. I've seen data on arrest rates, and rehab rates, but those are indicators of systems, policy, and availability, not drug use rates. Maybe that data is out there, but I've not seen it. Massachusetts does have one of the lowest per capita drug abuse violations rates, for instance, but that doesn't indicate much. We're very low on meth lab incidents. Low on opioid sales, but pretty high on overdoses. Weed, well who cares.

Based on self reported use it ranks very high. O/Ds are also a good indicator, while not the be all/end all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
You're right. Increasing the benefit to working should help. And if you're willing to spend more tax money, like I am, to try to change the multi generational dynamic, I'm with you.

I am willing if there is a proven formula and accountability in the system. Problem is, the whole system today (at its best) tends to be $ smart, yet pound foolish.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:41 AM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
38,520 posts, read 28,683,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massnative71 View Post
I am willing if there is a proven formula and accountability in the system. Problem is, the whole system today (at its best) tends to be $ smart, yet pound foolish.

Well there are never proven systems. There are systems shown to work, but loads of people complain about how expensive they are, or they won't work in our society (without trying them). At a point though there does need to be a large "leap of faith" based on the best research available. Or, we just keep with the status quo.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:10 AM
 
405 posts, read 164,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell View Post
Going back to Maslow and needs an economy has to start on the lower level first. You aren't going to expect jobs requiring a doctorate degree and ten years experience. One thing that does stand out at least to me is that there is a wide range of vocational schools within the region period between Putnam High School, stcc, asanuntuck, Smith and whatever remains of Dean


Lower level - yes. Every successful economy starts at the lowest level. The US was once a sweatshop economy, with mills, garment manufacturing, etc. So was England, so was Germany, etc, etc. China has worked it's way up to become a powerhouse. One of the reasons is that for every X number of employees, there is a supervisor, then payroll and HR people, then a plant manager, with each salary level getting progressively better. The people on the lower levels work their way up to the next level through promotions. Without that entry level tier, there are none of the other positions. It's finding people to fill the entry level jobs that is the problem.


There is also a lot of scorn for low paid work in this country (maybe lots of countries). Myself, I have done many of the jobs 'Americans won't do'. My first job was washing dishes. I've worked on a horse farm, sleeping in a stall, I've worked on loading docks, been a bartender, I've run a hot dog cart. In all my working years only 11 of those did I have a good salary. YET, in my retirement I look back and I've had a pretty happy life. I have no debt, never seen the inside of a court room, I've known lots of people from many walks of life, and seen every state and quite a bit of the world. I've stayed at 4 star hotels in Hollywood, New York and South Beach and a transient flop house in the boonies of North Dakota.


I KNOW it is possible to have a great, humble, and law abiding life without following a prescribed path. The sun doesn't rise and set on wealth. I never felt poor and I never envied those with more (which is darn near most people), and I've never taken a dime, since I left home a week after my 17th birthday.



That's why I have little patience for those who refuse work or say that crime has to come with being poor.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:44 AM
 
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Income is one thing but there's also assets. There's always going to be a debate if it is better to have a social beneift as a direct right (public education, public housing etc) vs that of a voucher (charter schools section 8 etc) which is best? There's no real answer. There are poverty traps out there. It's not like it's one massive system of assistance. EBT, WIC, SNAP, TANF, health etc have different requirements and making more sometimes can cause cuts to have them pay out of pocket and technically might be less off. Eventually you have to get off and there's been some back and forth on this. Worcester housing authority has a program that if you want to stay you have to be working, going to school or volunteering 20 hours or more (unless you are disabled or elderly).

As for the war on drugs there really needs to be some funding to get people off. Of course this also depends if they want to. Those on drugs often times cannot find work. As a results they don't care and continue to use. This attracts dealers which creates competition and turf battles. We don't always see drug abuse but it's all over the place. Going after dealers is fine but if the conditions that lead people to drugs get eliminated might be a better long term solution.

Way back in elementary school I had a interesting mix. Wayne wanted to be a fighter pilot for the navy. Matt was the kid that some made a peitition to get him out of class.

Wayne entered the Navy
Wayne went to Annapolis
Wayne became not just a pilot but is a test pilot. He's the first to fly

Matt I saw about 15 years later. He was living with a coworker of mine and he told me his parents kicked him out for heroin use.

Same class, same demographics but different choices.

There's a saying that colleagues of mine have that rings true. Equal opportunities don't mean equal outcomes. It would be nice if they did but you can't make a horse drink. Central library has a whole wing gifted to it by the church of vocational training. I don't mean a few books I mean a good six to eight bookshelves loaded. Licenses, tests, courses you name it and it can help. But I hardly see anyone there looking at them.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell View Post
Same class, same demographics but different choices.

There's a saying that colleagues of mine have that rings true. Equal opportunities don't mean equal outcomes.

So true. I honestly think it's pre-programmed before birth. Whatever the thing is that sets your personality is there for life. There are also factors such as I.Q. aptitude and talent. The auto mechanics at the dealerships make great money, but I don't think you can just train someone without mechanical aptitude or a love of cars to do it. I also think many traits, such as I.Q. and propensity for addiction are hereditary.
There has never been a society, since the beggars in ancient Rome, that hasn't had homeless people and addicts. I think it's just a part of humanity, but the growing numbers are what's alarming. At least Springfield is nowhere near San Francisco or Southern California. They are at the level of extreme wealth and poverty like Rio.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell View Post
There are poverty traps out there.

One of the biggest poverty traps is having a felony record. I know a couple of guys who have records because of 3rd drunk driving offenses. In one case the first 2 were when he was 19 and the third was when he was 45. In his case, even his dog was taken to the shelter. So, a year in jail, loss of job, home, driving license, credit destroyed and then coming out without a penny and a felony record. Try and start your life over from scratch when landlords and employers do CORI and credit checks.



We need more forgiveness and redemption and less vengeance and retribution in this world. People say "serves him right, they shouldn't have done it" Of course they shouldn't, but human beings do dumb things and having your life destroyed for something where there was no victim doesn't serve society in the least.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:37 AM
 
Location: stuck in the woods with bears and moose
22,661 posts, read 21,716,277 times
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SOCIAL WORKERS. They need more social workers but social workers do not get paid enough.
Social workers could intervene and help the kids at the very early age when their brains are getting wired to be productive members of society or generational welfare takers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by massnative71 View Post
Well maybe if they got paid what they are actually worth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
So true. I honestly think it's pre-programmed before birth. Whatever the thing is that sets your personality is there for life. There are also factors such as I.Q. aptitude and talent. The auto mechanics at the dealerships make great money, but I don't think you can just train someone without mechanical aptitude or a love of cars to do it. I also think many traits, such as I.Q. and propensity for addiction are hereditary.
There has never been a society, since the beggars in ancient Rome, that hasn't had homeless people and addicts. I think it's just a part of humanity, but the growing numbers are what's alarming. At least Springfield is nowhere near San Francisco or Southern California. They are at the level of extreme wealth and poverty like Rio.
Some of it is inherited, some of it is environment. We can't change what abilities they inherit but we COULD influence their early mindset. SOCIAL WORKERS, if they were paid what they are worth, and not given huge caseloads that are impossible to manage, could work with these kids and maybe even set up "schools" or daycares of some sort that were high quality and aimed at improving the mindsets of these kids. Role models, having books read to them, learning acceptable behavior, more or less keeping them from picking up the ghetto values that they see all around them.

If the little three year old boy shows an interest and ability in mechanics, then the social workers could push him in that direction, if the child is interested in something else, push them toward that. As a normal parent would do, but these kids do not have normal parents. They will never do well in school either due to their home life and poor parenting.

There will always be some failures, some who are beyond hope. They'll end up using the safety net their entire life probably. But there are so many more who could be helped along and gotten on the right path. Early intervention is key. Dedicated social workers, paid well, with a plan. Not just throwing money at it.
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:00 PM
 
12,655 posts, read 9,769,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
One of the biggest poverty traps is having a felony record. I know a couple of guys who have records because of 3rd drunk driving offenses. In one case the first 2 were when he was 19 and the third was when he was 45. In his case, even his dog was taken to the shelter. So, a year in jail, loss of job, home, driving license, credit destroyed and then coming out without a penny and a felony record. Try and start your life over from scratch when landlords and employers do CORI and credit checks.



We need more forgiveness and redemption and less vengeance and retribution in this world. People say "serves him right, they shouldn't have done it" Of course they shouldn't, but human beings do dumb things and having your life destroyed for something where there was no victim doesn't serve society in the least.
3 DUIs??? People screw up, but I mean if once or twice doesn't teach one a lesson then IDK. I try to have empathy for people...but no. No victim??? Please.
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