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Old 08-23-2018, 12:08 PM
 
405 posts, read 162,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massnative71 View Post
3 DUIs??? People screw up, but I mean if once or twice doesn't teach one a lesson then IDK. I try to have empathy for people...but no. No victim??? Please.

In this particular case, the first 2 were when he had just got out of high school. The third was coming from a wedding, over the limit but not drunk. You could have 2 beers at a ballgame and be over the limit. There was no victim in any of those instances. DUI is the only crime that carries that sort of penalty just for an increased POTENTIAL to do harm. Where you pay for the crimes that others have committed in the circumstance. There are a hell of a lot of people who have been made almost unfunctional because of the torch burning mentality. Speaking from my own experience, there were many times in my younger years when I drove drunk. Fortunately I never caused any damage or was stopped. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't driven multiple times after 2 beers, so the public outrage is somewhat hypocritical.
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:22 PM
 
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Anyway, tomorrow is the big day. A new chapter and identity for Springfield as the entertainment capital of New England. Big E, Six Flags, The Hall of Fame and now the casino. Now they need to turn back that puritan 'no music after 1am' thing and get some nightlife going downtown. You can feel the excitement in the air.


Springfield made USA Today this morning and not for any top worst list either. We're in the daily papers from Las Vegas to Minneapolis to Miami.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/1071616002/

Last edited by IWLC; 08-23-2018 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:29 PM
 
12,103 posts, read 9,513,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
In this particular case, the first 2 were when he had just got out of high school. The third was coming from a wedding, over the limit but not drunk. You could have 2 beers at a ballgame and be over the limit. There was no victim in any of those instances. DUI is the only crime that carries that sort of penalty just for an increased POTENTIAL to do harm. Where you pay for the crimes that others have committed in the circumstance. There are a hell of a lot of people who have been made almost unfunctional because of the torch burning mentality. Speaking from my own experience, there were many times in my younger years when I drove drunk. Fortunately I never caused any damage or was stopped. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't driven multiple times after 2 beers, so the public outrage is somewhat hypocritical.
After one scare, most any rational person would quit especially given the consequences of a 2nd offense.


Because many people have done it doesn't make it a harmless thing. Drunk driving KILLS. The people going around saying "Oh I'm extra careful after I've had a few..." are always the same ones ending up causing a major accident (or worse) down the road. There are still places your friend can find work, I am sure. Count himself lucky he still has his life, or isn't stuck with the grief of taking another's away. Either way, there is absolutely no way a 3rd DUI offense shouldn't be a felony. There are other crimes classified as felonies, that are far less fatal and destructive.
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by massnative71 View Post
There are other crimes classified as felonies, that are far less fatal and destructive.

The difference being causing fatality or destruction and having the potential to do so. The same argument could be made for owning a firearm. But anyway, I haven't even had a beer in 26 years so it's not my fight. Obviously the majority believe, as you do, that it warrants the total destruction of one's life as a punishment.


On a similar front, Charlie Baker is spearheading a move to change the values of property theft before they are felonies so that people are not stigmatized for life and can find housing and employment. An excellent move.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
The difference being causing fatality or destruction and having the potential to do so. The same argument could be made for owning a firearm. But anyway, I haven't even had a beer in 26 years so it's not my fight. Obviously the majority believe, as you do, that it warrants the total destruction of one's life as a punishment.
So you are saying somebody has to die before it is taken seriously? That's pretty much how things went in the old days, and many lost their lives as a result. Like I said, first time is one thing. 2nd time, well, maybe the slow learners need that extra strike against them. 3rd time you are clearly habitual, am not teachable and are a danger to the public. Maybe not make it a felony, but it should at the very least be a loss of license for life. For many, that would actually be harsher.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
The difference being causing fatality or destruction and having the potential to do so. The same argument could be made for owning a firearm. But anyway, I haven't even had a beer in 26 years so it's not my fight. Obviously the majority believe, as you do, that it warrants the total destruction of one's life as a punishment.


On a similar front, Charlie Baker is spearheading a move to change the values of property theft before they are felonies so that people are not stigmatized for life and can find housing and employment. An excellent move.
From a utilitarian perspective, the destruction of a serial drunk driver's life is a worthwhile trade to disincentivize such behavior in the future and protect the lives of the potential victims he might mow down.

If having multiple DUIs on your record isn't enough of a wake-up call to prevent you from getting behind the wheel after drinking, then you're too self-absorbed to make rational decisions when the safety of other people is at stake. Society can't trust people like that to rely on a moral compass or compassion for others to guide their actions. So we punish them.

If your acquaintance was caught three times, how many times did he drive under the influence and get away with it? He may not have killed anyone, but he certainly did his best to increase the odds. He shouldn't get bonus points for gambling with other people's lives and getting lucky.

Also, suggesting that DUI is the only crime that punishes for potential harm is misleading. Attempted assault and attempted murder are punishable crimes, even though, like most DUIs, they do not actually end in the worse-case scenario. If a DUI happens to result in death in Massachusetts, it can be charged as a felony homicide. Your acquaintance may not have killed anyone yet, but he has proven himself to be chronically incapable of following the law and utterly indifferent to the safety of others.

What would you recommend as an appropriate punishment?
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by massnative71 View Post
but it should at the very least be a loss of license for life. For many, that would actually be harsher.

That the US has more people in prison than the rest of the world (outside of N. Korea and China) combined might show that filling prisons doesn't work. Just thinking of harsher and harsher punishments is not the right direction - obviously. Perhaps it's time to put our stubborn arrogance aside and take a look at how other countries deal successfully with things.


Criminal records are a major cause for downslides into homelessness. We can't keep wringing our hands over homelessness while we make it impossible for people to be anything other than homeless. Not everyone has a safety net of forgiving spouse and family.


Mandatory minimum sentences or across the board punishments are wrong and don't work. The person who is completely functional after 2 or 3 beers (most people) is not the same as the person who is out of control after drinking all day. By the definition of the law, almost every single person leaving a bar is a criminal. Or is getting caught the crime and not the action?
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:45 PM
 
1,198 posts, read 483,487 times
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Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
Mandatory minimum sentences or across the board punishments are wrong and don't work. The person who is completely functional after 2 or 3 beers (most people) is not the same as the person who is out of control after drinking all day. By the definition of the law, almost every single person leaving a bar is a criminal. Or is getting caught the crime and not the action?
It's puzzling that you seem to be starting from the premise that it's simply not possible to drink without getting behind a wheel. There are several ways to accomplish this, and they include (a) not drinking at all, (b) drinking at home, (c) drinking only at bars/events with access to public transportation, (d) drinking only when you have a designated driver.

There are so many options that don't require rolling the dice with other people's lives just so that you can get buzzed without the hassle of finding a ride. And in my experience, the people who insist that they are "completely functional" after 2 or 3 beers tend to be the ones with DUI records. They also tend to vastly overestimate their own functional abilities.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:49 PM
 
405 posts, read 162,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
It's puzzling that you seem to be starting from the premise that it's simply not possible to drink without getting behind a wheel.

Personally I don't know why people drink at all, but it seems that alcohol is available at every occasion. My point is that people are human and up sometimes and it's a damn shame that someone who is stopped and has caused no damage or injury has his life pulled out from under him.


It's interesting, though, that with the glorification of alcohol, wine and craft beers especially that seemingly no one will admit to ever having more than a single glass, themselves, before driving home. I call BS.



That's all I have to say about that. Honestly, I'd rather talk about Springfield, past, present, and future.

Last edited by CaseyB; 08-24-2018 at 04:07 AM.. Reason: language
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:29 AM
 
17,448 posts, read 9,750,770 times
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
I've never seen anything indicating that Mass is a high drug use state. I've seen data on arrest rates, and rehab rates, but those are indicators of systems, policy, and availability, not drug use rates. Maybe that data is out there, but I've not seen it. Massachusetts does have one of the lowest per capita drug abuse violations rates, for instance, but that doesn't indicate much. We're very low on meth lab incidents. Low on opioid sales, but pretty high on overdoses. Weed, well who cares.

Massachusetts is the #5 state for opioid deaths per 100,000.
Citation: https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abus...aries-by-state
West Virginia leads the pack with 43.40 deaths per 100,000. Massachusetts is 29.70 tied for #5 with Rhode Island.


The cops gunned down a neighborhood physician's kid in front of my house a couple of years ago. He survived but suicided in a state mental hospital 6 months later. He flunked out of Northeastern after drugs pushed him off the rails. It's everywhere.


In Vermont, Holyoke is the source for most of the heroin. Pretty much any heroin bust of an out-of-state dealer has a Bronx or Holyoke address. Mass plates and deep tinted windows get pulled over as standard operating procedure by the Vermont state police.
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