Are there signs of people leaving Boston for cheaper parts of the state yet? (Worcester: lease, student loan)

[Bridge781]

I don’t think it’s about being offended. It’s just perception really of what some see as upper middle class.

[porterhouse]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

There is a pretty standard list of US versus the rest of the first world. Anyone who has lived and traveled outside the US has a similar list...

I’ve lived and worked for extended periods in both Asia and Europe. I do not have a similar list, nor do most of the expats I know. Every nation has their issues, and the bottom line is that people from all over the world are still pounding down the door to come to the US. If all of these issues really existed and were better elsewhere US citizens would actually be leaving, rather than just pining to do so.

When I asked the previous poster where they’d go, it was a honest question. We have discussed moving our family abroad for a period time but really haven’t found a viable spot to seriously consider. Our motivation however would not be to escape the US. The grass is not always greener.

[brk330]

Originally Posted by massnative71

If they are going to go that far, they might as well just leave the state for similarly affordable but far more appealing options.

I moved here a few years back from a Colorado Ski Town. Location Neutral Workers were considered the hot new market for buyers way before Covid-19.
https://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/...ounty-growing/

[Lampert]

Originally Posted by simplexsimon

Why are people reading into my definition of upper middle class? I just picked a number. If I said $200k the $150k'ers would be offended. If I said $150k, the $100k'ers would be offended. And I did say household income. Whether that's two earners or one, whatever.

The question was what are the quality of life differences for someone in that percentile in the U.S. vs. Germany. Fine let's be more specific...Boston vs Berlin. Does anybody have a problem with that question?

Without data 250k sounds a very good guess for upper middle class.

[Lampert]

When comparing Europe to the US the discussion should be limited to European countries comparable to the US (Central/Western/Northern and Southern to an extent). Europe is way more diverse than the US but none is thinking to retire in Eastern Ukraine where there is a war going on. Ukraine is Europe but is not the Europe we are talking about.

Originally Posted by mdovell

2A? Despite what some on the ride might say you can legally get a firearm in much of Europe you just can't claim that it's a right. More importantly making something illegal does not mean that it goes away the War on Drugs is evidence of this..

Gun ownership is a non-issue in 90% of Europe (see above for definition of Europe). People just don't care about owning guns. In most places is not that easy to own guns (except maybe for hunting), there is extended background check and usually is not possible to easily modify your guns so your assault-style rifle fits 50 rounds instead of 5.

Originally Posted by mdovell

You can test out of classes for higher ed for 90%off. I've been to Europe a number of times. But history has shown quite a bit of violence. Religions freedom is spotty at best. I don't know if the EU will last. It hasn't incorporated all of Europe yet. Moreover the lack of population growth and constant demands for immigration get complicated. When I hear the illegals in Latin America crossing over to the United States they probably had access to things like running water and Rose and electricity. In parts of Africa they are fleeing actual Civil War, possibly landmines, genocide and so forth.

Freedom of religion is comparable to the US in every European country. Immigration is more challenging in Europe because it's in large part of a different religion and this add an extra layer to overcome.

Originally Posted by mdovell

in the USA there is right of soil. If you are born here you are citizen hear the concept is pretty simple. But in Europe that is not the case. You can be born in Ireland and *not* be an Irish citizen. They don't view themselves as welcoming immigrants. You can't go to Germany and be consider German. But you can go to the US and be considered American.

Without birth-right you can still get your European citizenship as an immigrant. It's more complicated but you can't expect a place that has much higher population density to be wanting to encourage immigration. If the US had the population density of the EU we would have over 1 billion people living here. If we had the population density of Germany we would have well over 2 billion people living here. Do you think the US would be giving away citizenship? There is push back already now.

Originally Posted by mdovell

Worker rights? Does that include the Poles in the UK and Turks in Germany? They have right of blood, not soil. The EU has tried to be the US of Europe but that might not be what they really wanted.

The EU never-ever tried to be the US of Europe. A couple of theoretical approaches don't make a reality.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by porterhouse

I’ve lived and worked for extended periods in both Asia and Europe. I do not have a similar list, nor do most of the expats I know. Every nation has their issues, and the bottom line is that people from all over the world are still pounding down the door to come to the US. If all of these issues really existed and were better elsewhere US citizens would actually be leaving, rather than just pining to do so.

When I asked the previous poster where they’d go, it was a honest question. We have discussed moving our family abroad for a period time but really haven’t found a viable spot to seriously consider. Our motivation however would not be to escape the US. The grass is not always greener.

I think the answer is "C, both A & B." I've yet to meet anyone who has spent a significant amount of time abroad who hasn't seen that there is a long list of things that other countries do better than the United States. Many countries manage transportation better than we do, most first world countries are far safer in terms of violent crime, most have better educational attainment, less poverty, better access to healthcare, etc.

But I also think that there's a misconception that because other countries may do some things better, they must be inherently better overall. That's not necessarily true. The issues in many of the countries that are touted as being better are often more nuanced (but not always). Racism is bad in America, but I think a lot of Americans are surprised to find that it is similarly terrible (different, and worse even) in many countries that are highly touted for their open mindedness (France, Sweden, etc.). Obesity in the UK (another country with major racial disparities) is not far off from U.S. levels and its rising at a faster rate (if you've eaten in the UK - especially outside of London - you can see why). France is rife with labor issues. Germany has a strong education system, but it's rigid and selective and "late bloomers" are often steered toward lower level programs spitting kids into less lucrative careers. Much more of an individuals paycheck goes back to the government in Western Europe and Japan. I could go on.

As for where I'd go if I were to leave the U.S., it'd be Canada, Ireland, or the UK. and I wouldn't go to either with the preconceived notion that they're all around better or worse than the U.S. Australia and New Zealand are also on the radar, but the distance from friends/family makes them less realistic. My sister lives in the U.K. (admittedly, one of the "grass is greener" types - she believed Europe was utopia) and while her stance has softened, she may never move back to the states.

[porterhouse]

I wholeheartedly agree with your entire post @lrfox

I lived in Australia for a year about 20 years ago and did feel very disconnected from friends and family in the US. I would assume Facetime and other technologies would make that more manageable today.

I do have friends who have moved to the Toronto area and are quite happy there. That barely qualifies as abroad in my mind, however it is a good happy medium for many, with the UK being the next step after that.

[BostonBornMassMade]

Originally Posted by simplexsimon

Why are people reading into my definition of upper middle class? I just picked a number. If I said $200k the $150k'ers would be offended. If I said $150k, the $100k'ers would be offended. And I did say household income. Whether that's two earners or one, whatever.

The question was what are the quality of life differences for someone in that percentile in the U.S. vs. Germany. Fine let's be more specific...Boston vs Berlin. Does anybody have a problem with that question?

Because it’s 3x the median HHI income? Obviously it’s far too high to be a baseline for upper middle class. But let’s say that is what it takes to live what would be considered an upper middle class lifestyle in other parts of the country. That’s not goods for local people or most people. If anything that’s a troubling reality.

Upper middle class in MA should start at about 150k given the median HHI.

[scorpio516]

Originally Posted by Lampert

The EU never-ever tried to be the US of Europe. A couple of theoretical approaches don't make a reality.

And that's backwards too - the US is the Holy Roman Empire of North America . The continental congress took a lot of ideas from the HRE to create the US - especially the statists there

[simplexsimon]

Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade

Because it’s 3x the median HHI income? Obviously it’s far too high to be a baseline for upper middle class. But let’s say that is what it takes to live what would be considered an upper middle class lifestyle in other parts of the country. That’s not goods for local people or most people. If anything that’s a troubling reality.

Upper middle class in MA should start at about 150k given the median HHI.

I don't think you understood my original question. The number itself is not that meaningful.