Does voting matter in MA? (Boston, Worcester: home, private school, income)

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by Williepaws

If you are voting for President then NO it doesnt matter if you vote or not. State elections, it might matter. Local elections, matters very much.

People are leaving Ma because they are tired of the high tax rate which is only going to get worse. Doesnt have anything to do with “white flight” but it has alot to do with money. And others I know who have bought property in neighboring states are doing so due to the draconian measures imposed by state govt over covid restrictions. They don’t want to go thru some of this again. And the real estate mkt is very hot. Take your money and get out.

This high tax rate is a myth. Other than New Hampshire, if you make good money, Massachusetts has the lowest overall tax burden in the Northeast. Plug in the numbers for $150k, house, and car in the other 4 New England states, NY, and NJ. The flat 5% income tax and prop 2 1/2 make an enormous difference.

What chases people out of the high cost of living areas is housing cost. If you don’t have the job skills to afford the housing, you’re much better off in a cheaper housing market.

[BostonBornMassMade]

Originally Posted by Lampert

It's definitely possible. Those are big changes. Could still be mostly economic pressure though. Although is more likely to be schools.

I’d have to assume schools only improved in all those communities even if just bye fraction as much as they did statewide. I don’t think home values either. Median home value did not increase enough in any of those communities (aside from maybe Everett) to really warrant a move out of state, much less so in state. None of those towns ever cracked 400k median home value except Everett. But surely for some it was enough of an unexpected boost from when they bought...

I’m not saying there was no ‘dispersion’ but I’m also not going to say there was no flight either...my gut would tell me it’s not personal finances alone causing a few middle age white people to leave Lawrence or Brockton. There’s culture, there’s safety, there’s old friends and familiarities... white flight absent in MA?

[Williepaws]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

This high tax rate is a myth. Other than New Hampshire, if you make good money, Massachusetts has the lowest overall tax burden in the Northeast. Plug in the numbers for $150k, house, and car in the other 4 New England states, NY, and NJ. The flat 5% income tax and prop 2 1/2 make an enormous difference.

What chases people out of the high cost of living areas is housing cost. If you don’t have the job skills to afford the housing, you’re much better off in a cheaper housing market.

No, no, no. Nonsense. Property taxes are out of sight and that doesnt include all the extras, like trash fee, trash bags, stormdrain fee. Water and sewer fees. Sometimes livestock fee. On top of all of that is income tax, sales tax, capital gains taxes, excise taxes, etc. etc etc. and what do we get for it? Not much. Public transport is a laugh, the roads are incredibly crowded. Do your math. And take your head out of the sand.

[mdovell]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

New Bedford was only 75% white because the US census doesn’t count Portuguese as Hispanic. It’s still almost 40% Portuguese with most of that from the Azores. The demographic shift is middle class Portuguese moving to the suburbs and replaced with Hispanic. Spanish wasn’t a common language 40 years ago.

That's because Portuguese is not considered Hispanic it is considered Latino. A long time ago I had a class with a Brazilian woman who said pretty graphically she doesn't mind being called Latino but she'll bite the head off of you if you call her Hispanic. Basically the division of s. american between portugual and spain wasn't lost on her.

Now technically if you want to nit pick Latino should also include French, Italian and Romanian.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Williepaws

If you are voting for President then NO it doesnt matter if you vote or not. State elections, it might matter. Local elections, matters very much.

People are leaving Ma because they are tired of the high tax rate which is only going to get worse. Doesnt have anything to do with “white flight” but it has alot to do with money. And others I know who have bought property in neighboring states are doing so due to the draconian measures imposed by state govt over covid restrictions. They don’t want to go thru some of this again. And the real estate mkt is very hot. Take your money and get out.

But it doesn't have a high tax rate. Its firmly middle of the pack in total taxation when you look at all 50 states.

[mdovell]

Originally Posted by Williepaws

No, no, no. Nonsense. Property taxes are out of sight and that doesnt include all the extras, like trash fee, trash bags, stormdrain fee. Water and sewer fees. Sometimes livestock fee. On top of all of that is income tax, sales tax, capital gains taxes, excise taxes, etc. etc etc. and what do we get for it? Not much. Public transport is a laugh, the roads are incredibly crowded. Do your math. And take your head out of the sand.

Uh...the income tax is flat. Capital gains isn't that high when you consider portfolio allocation. Prop 2 1/2 makes a huge difference. I've heard of rates in CT going up 9% easily. I'm sorry but if you raise taxes 9% and it isn't to justify a project but is just operating then something is seriously wrong.

I'm not saying Mass is cheap but when things are capped for what ever reasons that make a world of difference. Now if you want to pay more of course you can authorize more.

Public transit depends on what you want. PVTA does a good job out west MBTA had too much bs. Roads crowded? when? post covid? I 91 hardly jams up and it's near 70mph going straight down..and that's with construction! Roads depend on federal, state and local. I know a road in middleboro that should be decommissioned. they won't fix it because there's only five houses on that street and three are in foreclosure. It costs about a million a mile to make a road in the state and then there's the maintenance.

Chapter 90 is a good program but generally it is awarded based on jobs and miles driven. I don't know how they are going to change it.

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade

I’m not saying there was no ‘dispersion’ but I’m also not going to say there was no flight either...my gut would tell me it’s not personal finances alone causing a few middle age white people to leave Lawrence or Brockton. There’s culture, there’s safety, there’s old friends and familiarities... white flight absent in MA?

I think this is a fair assessment. I certainly can't imagine many upwardly mobile generational white families staying in Brockton simply because their parents/grandparents called it home. Towns like Easton or even the Bridgewaters become a compelling alternative to high poverty rates.

This said, the number of non-white families moving to the Bridgwaters and Easton (cue WROR) suggest there is a general flight out of Brockton for all upwardly mobile families ... whites being more upwardly mobile and ... perhaps ... more likely to re-root nearby. I know few upwardly mobile African Americans who stick it out in MA ... not when there are more robust black middle class communities like DC/MD, ATL, Hou/Austin, etc. where opportunities are more equitable.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by Shrewsburried

I know few upwardly mobile African Americans who stick it out in MA ... not when there are more robust black middle class communities like DC/MD, ATL, Hou/Austin, etc. where opportunities are more equitable.

That's the case in my world as well, in fact those three cities seem to be the primary destinations. Likewise, a steady flow of upwardly mobile Hispanics to FL (particularly Orlando but all over the state as well). I've seen a far higher proportion of those groups abandon MA than whites I know. And I can't think of a single non-white who has arrived TO Mass. since the mid-2000s. By the numbers they are obviously coming, I just know nothing about them or what brought them to MA.



People talk about Worcester turning less white, again that contrasts from my personal life where I know plenty of white people from Boston are who have bought in Worcester over the past decade simply because one can actually still buy a house with a yard and a decent neighborhood there. Out of people who bought in Worcester, Middleboro, Taunton, RI and NH...it was for all the same purpose really (so they could afford a home). I never heard politics or aversion to diversity come up once (NH), although a few after the fact (once they get there) occasionally rub in with the "so glad I got out of Mass. the place is going to he## in a hand basket, my guns are safe here, etc.".

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

This high tax rate is a myth. Other than New Hampshire, if you make good money, Massachusetts has the lowest overall tax burden in the Northeast. Plug in the numbers for $150k, house, and car in the other 4 New England states, NY, and NJ. The flat 5% income tax and prop 2 1/2 make an enormous difference.

That's not everything though. It's a 5% flat income tax that offers very minimal deductions. With some of these other states the rates might look higher at first glance, not realizing they offer many of the same deductions you get on the federal side. As a resident of Maine and one who itemizes quite a bit, last time I ran the numbers I was paying a lower percentage here than the highest I ever did MA (where my income was considerably less). I believe RI is similar in how it's based off the federal tax formula. My property taxes here are half of what a comparable house in MA would be, and that is being generous. There is also a statewide homestead exemption. Auto taxes certainly are brutal, that's the one place they seem to get you. And it you took the standard deduction, the numbers would obviously look different.

[BostonBornMassMade]

Originally Posted by Shrewsburried

I think this is a fair assessment. I certainly can't imagine many upwardly mobile generational white families staying in Brockton simply because their parents/grandparents called it home. Towns like Easton or even the Bridgewaters become a compelling alternative to high poverty rates.

This said, the number of non-white families moving to the Bridgwaters and Easton (cue WROR) suggest there is a general flight out of Brockton for all upwardly mobile families ... whites being more upwardly mobile and ... perhaps ... more likely to re-root nearby. I know few upwardly mobile African Americans who stick it out in MA ... not when there are more robust black middle class communities like DC/MD, ATL, Hou/Austin, etc. where opportunities are more equitable.

Yea but numbers suggest whites are leaving the state entirely. My intuition tells me it’s easier for them to find good paying jobs in a remote location than for black Americans. In addition to this many of the people who are Black in MA are second generation Carribean and they don’t have connections to the south, the culture they know is mostly what exist from Eastern MA to North Jersey. They’re not so likely to dash for TX/GA as say blacks in New Jersey or Chicago. I meet West Indian American kids from Florida New York New Jersey and Connecticut whose families move dot Massachusetts all the time. Like very often-at all income brackets. Usually to be with other family or in search of better neighborhoods, jobs, and schools.

But yes I had a summer league basketball coach who coaches in Brockton but lived in Easton, my mother lived in Bridgewater. And I do see Black people downtown in the times I’ve been through Bridgewater (it’s been 2/3 years). They have some subsidized apartment and maybe even some section 8 properties, I don’t think Bridgewater typically attracts and upwardly mobile Black person just one who doesn’t want to live in Brockton- a la Avon or Holbrook. I’ve met professional Black people mainly in Randolph Quincy Canton Milton Stoughton. Some live in Weymouth Dedham Foxboro and Norwood as well. Obviously in Boston too but thats not the question.