Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:07 PM
 
2,275 posts, read 1,317,861 times
Reputation: 1576

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade View Post
If Boston had no POC there’d hardly be any poverty at all whatsoever through the entire city, ditto for the metro.
If Boston had no POC there would be many more poor whites living in Boston. The city would still need plenty of low paying jobs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
21,428 posts, read 12,424,419 times
Reputation: 11108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried View Post
I think you're overrepresenting my overrepresenting.

To my knowledge, Springfield has been the only MA city consistently in the top 50 for overall crime past decade (and not violent crime). Additionally, as you are aware crime rankings are also not particularly linear or driven solely by violent crime. Baltimore and, to a lesser degree, cities like St. Louis, KC, etc. are way more violent than than the worst MA cities ... now or back in 2010 when MA was more violent as whole. A city ranked at #50 is going to have 3x-4x less violent crime than first 10-15 on the list and the scope is going to be much more limited (as you suggest).

As a resident, I'm far more concerned about violent crime than I am about property crime. I'm also not trying to suggest those living within these MA cities are spared from violence, crime, and general struggle ... this is obviously not the case. I'm just rather tired of seeing this forum constantly take a s___ on MAs low tier cities as though they are somehow wildly more violent/dangerous than 'gentrified' Boston or comparable to Americans worst metro areas in which every member of society runs a serious risk of becoming a victim of crime.
No theyre not more dangerous but the QOL is pretty god-awful for the poorer residents. I'd much rather be in Baltimore or Philadelphia than Hartford. Just more to do, more fun, more culture. Sam with the other larger cities you mentioned.

New Englands' worse cities get ragged on because they offer very little in the way of a "footloose" feel compared o many other bad cities. The stores close early, things like Hookah bars and happy hours are banned, the corner stores cant serve hot food, block parties are non-existent,it's those little things-plus the sheer inertia from the state level due to the lack of endemic gun violence.

There's no glitz, glamour or excitement that might come with living in a larger city or a city in California. You just get old rickety housing, hookers, junkies, and poorly invested in parks. You get pretty much all the downside of high crime but with fewer shootings and robberies. And its cold, and relatively expensive. This is why these places would be equivalent to Youngstown or Flint (as they were in the 70s/80s) if it weren't for immigrants willing to greatly sacrifice QOL.

No amount of C-D boosting will ever make these places attractive to the general American populace let alone its upper classes. Notice how they never ever come up in the "General US" board independent of Boston. I mentioned Worcester as a possible "next city" thread and received absolute crickets from anyone not from MA. And that's out best bet-its just not realistic.

Its not all bad because MA people are snobs its because 9/10 MA resident couldn't be convinced to move to Haverhill or Fitchburg without and outrageous financial incentive to do so-which almost never happens
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:13 PM
 
2,275 posts, read 1,317,861 times
Reputation: 1576
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade View Post
There's no glitz, glamour or excitement that might come with living in a larger city or a city in California.
I still remember my surprise when, in Boston, multiple pubs sent me away because minutes before 9:00PM the kitchen was already closed. And Boston is the cool city in New England! Considering how many students are in Boston I have always found this quite puzzling.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:31 PM
 
24,510 posts, read 17,988,287 times
Reputation: 40204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade View Post
No theyre not more dangerous but the QOL is pretty god-awful for the poorer residents. I'd much rather be in Baltimore or Philadelphia than Hartford. Just more to do, more fun, more culture. Sam with the other larger cities you mentioned.

New Englands' worse cities get ragged on because they offer very little in the way of a "footloose" feel compared o many other bad cities. The stores close early, things like Hookah bars and happy hours are banned, the corner stores cant serve hot food, block parties are non-existent,it's those little things-plus the sheer inertia from the state level due to the lack of endemic gun violence.

There's no glitz, glamour or excitement that might come with living in a larger city or a city in California. You just get old rickety housing, hookers, junkies, and poorly invested in parks. You get pretty much all the downside of high crime but with fewer shootings and robberies. And its cold, and relatively expensive. This is why these places would be equivalent to Youngstown or Flint (as they were in the 70s/80s) if it weren't for immigrants willing to greatly sacrifice QOL.

No amount of C-D boosting will ever make these places attractive to the general American populace let alone its upper classes. Notice how they never ever come up in the "General US" board independent of Boston. I mentioned Worcester as a possible "next city" thread and received absolute crickets from anyone not from MA. And that's out best bet-its just not realistic.

Its not all bad because MA people are snobs its because 9/10 MA resident couldn't be convinced to move to Haverhill or Fitchburg without and outrageous financial incentive to do so-which almost never happens

This is a New Bedford thread. The rant doesn't align with reality. It didn't happen this summer due to COVID-19 but there's some organized activity at the waterfront pretty much ever summer weekend. Fort Taber at the tip of the South End is really attractive and it's co-located with East Beach and there's every 30 minute bus service. The whole hurricane d.i.k.e. is a pedestrian walkway. The Zeiterion has events all the time. There are a bunch of places near the waterfront with food, alcohol, and entertainment. The YMCA runs all kinds of recreational activities and summer camps. I know quite a few college profs, attorneys, and other white collar people who live in the West End.


New Bedford has a few really bad neighborhoods and maybe 1/3 of the city by area is turn of the century multifamily housing that isn't as well kept as in the owner-occupied Portuguese/Azores era. It's what you can see driving past on I-195 so it's easy to get the impression that the whole city is like that. By square miles, 2/3 of it is middle class single family homes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
21,428 posts, read 12,424,419 times
Reputation: 11108
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
This is a New Bedford thread. The rant doesn't align with reality. It didn't happen this summer due to COVID-19 but there's some organized activity at the waterfront pretty much ever summer weekend. Fort Taber at the tip of the South End is really attractive and it's co-located with East Beach and there's every 30 minute bus service. The whole hurricane d.i.k.e. is a pedestrian walkway. The Zeiterion has events all the time. There are a bunch of places near the waterfront with food, alcohol, and entertainment. The YMCA runs all kinds of recreational activities and summer camps. I know quite a few college profs, attorneys, and other white collar people who live in the West End.


New Bedford has a few really bad neighborhoods and maybe 1/3 of the city by area is turn of the century multifamily housing that isn't as well kept as in the owner-occupied Portuguese/Azores era. It's what you can see driving past on I-195 so it's easy to get the impression that the whole city is like that. By square miles, 2/3 of it is middle-class single-family homes.
Yet would anyone categorize NB as middle class? home values, school rankings,, crime and incomes all dictate otherwise. You're referring to an 8/10 square block area. "Every 30-minute Bus Service" that's horrible. Every low-income city has a YMCA. Theres white-collar people in most failed cities- sometimes a lot fo them. This right here is why these cities never progress in a meaningful way- either no one cares people avoid them entirely or people insist they're good enough as is. You can hold your breath all you want but...I wouldn't.

Fort Taber?? The boring historical sight that arent interactive or engaging and only interest 50+ year old history buffs, oo lala. Never even heard of it before today. More passive dull space typical of MA cities.

Why would one live in new Bedford if they could live in an adjacent suburban area if they want a SFH with resale value and decent school? Literally, why?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
21,428 posts, read 12,424,419 times
Reputation: 11108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampert View Post
I still remember my surprise when, in Boston, multiple pubs sent me away because minutes before 9:00PM the kitchen was already closed. And Boston is the cool city in New England! Considering how many students are in Boston I have always found this quite puzzling.
No Providence is the cool city. Boston is cool but not in a bar crawl way. It's mostly the neighborhoods and really the people/natives who are cool.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
21,428 posts, read 12,424,419 times
Reputation: 11108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampert View Post
If Boston had no POC there would be many more poor whites living in Boston. The city would still need plenty of low paying jobs.
Not at all the point, I was making. I'm speaking strictly statistically. And for whatever reason they don't live in the city now how do you get boxed out by poor people from international waters?I don't know..

But nevertheless, there are very few poor white sin in Boston. about 7% of the site population, without college students you're looking at 5% of the white population (~15,000 poor white people in the city)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Providence, RI
12,595 posts, read 21,753,315 times
Reputation: 14052
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
This is a New Bedford thread. The rant doesn't align with reality. It didn't happen this summer due to COVID-19 but there's some organized activity at the waterfront pretty much ever summer weekend. Fort Taber at the tip of the South End is really attractive and it's co-located with East Beach and there's every 30 minute bus service. The whole hurricane d.i.k.e. is a pedestrian walkway. The Zeiterion has events all the time. There are a bunch of places near the waterfront with food, alcohol, and entertainment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade View Post
Yet would anyone categorize NB as middle class? home values, school rankings,, crime and incomes all dictate otherwise. You're referring to an 8/10 square block area. "Every 30-minute Bus Service" that's horrible. Every low-income city has a YMCA. Theres white-collar people in most failed cities- sometimes a lot fo them. This right here is why these cities never progress in a meaningful way- either no one cares people avoid them entirely or people insist they're good enough as is. You can hold your breath all you want but...I wouldn't...
You guys are both right.

GeoffD is 100% accurate in pointing out that the majority of the city is a perfectly livable place for middle and even upper middle class people. I know plenty as well - most of them love living there. I've always said that if my career wasn't so Boston-Centric, I'd consider a home in the Whaling District or the West End. It's a wonderful area with a lot of good shops and restaurants and a buttload of charm that you'll pay 10x as much for closer to Boston.

BostonBornMassMade is right in that it's not categorized as a "middle class" city because while the problems that exist in New Bedford (poverty, poor public schools, crime, etc.) exist in places like Boston, they're not overshadowed by an extremely prosperous economic engine and optics that come with it.

New Bedford is a divided city. Downtown New Bedford is a gem, as are all of the attractions GeoffD mentioned (Ft. Taber is more than just a historic site, it's a prominent and beautiful park on a peninsula in Buzzards Bay with great views of the Elizabeth Islands - it's very widely used by locals for everything from hanging out to engagement and wedding photos). What you don't see on I-195 is the unique (no other "Gateway City has anything comparable) whaling era downtown with it's cobblestone streets and gaslights, the beaches, the waterfront, etc. It's underrated in that regard. But the problem is that it follows the mold of some of the old rustbelt cities (Baltimore's Inner Harbor is a good large scale comp) in that the great restaurants, museums, theater, shopping, bars, etc. are largely patronized by people from the better off communities outside of the city. I used to frequent Rose Alley, Pour Farm, Sliante (it's something else now I believe), Cork, Waterfront Grille/Merrill's, Whaler's Tavern, Freestones, Black Whale, Carmine's, etc. fairly regularly. Just about everyone was from Dartmouth, Freetown/Lakeville, Acushnet, Fairhaven, Mattapoisett, etc. Locals hung out in "New Bedford Bars" in the North or South End. There's a general attitude that "Downtown New Bedford is for the people from outside the city."

In addition to the geographic setting, New Bedford benefits from relative isolation. Unlike Lowell, Lawrence, Brockton, etc. New Bedford has more semi-independence which has allowed it to emerge as something of a small regional entertainment hub. Everything "better" (Providence, Boston, Newport, etc.) is just far enough to create some demand for those types of things in New Bedford. But it's still a city where there isn't enough of a middle and upper middle class in the city itself to overshadow or counter many of its problems. The result is that many (most even) locals don't really tout these things as assets since they don't see them as being for New Bedford.

Last edited by lrfox; 12-01-2020 at 01:40 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 01:32 PM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,728,963 times
Reputation: 40634
I'm not a heavy metal fan, at all, but New Bedford does have (outside of pandemic times) one of the more popular metal clubs around. Also a strong hardcore scene (has had that since at least late 80s). Lots of people like going out there, for sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2020, 01:57 PM
 
24,510 posts, read 17,988,287 times
Reputation: 40204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade View Post
Why would one live in new Bedford if they could live in an adjacent suburban area if they want a SFH with resale value and decent school? Literally, why?

Affordability. If you don't need the school system, you get a ton of bang for the buck for very good housing stock. Most of my New Bedford friends live in the West End close to Buttonwood Park. A 3 bedroom house with detached garage a block off the park on a leafy street is $250k. A few live in the extreme South End within a block or two of the ocean out of the flood zone in the other nice single family home area. Similar prices. Other than oceanfront and the gated summer communities which have shot up like crazy, it's appreciated at the same rate as the rest of the region.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Massachusetts
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top