Will No Sale Tax vote pass in Massachusetts?

[LeavingMA]

Originally Posted by mattncind

I would love for all of those who were in favor of repealing the state income tax to explain how to cut the state budget by $12b each year?

Every respected economist and economic think tank in the state (including many non-partisan and conservative leaning) said that repealing the income tax would be disastrous.

I am not saying that the governor should not agressively seek to cut the budget to a certain extent (Pension reform, merging of state agencies, reviewing entitlement programs) A government should be constantly doing this regardless of the economic climate.

The fact remains though that Massachusetts according to a Moody/ABC News study is one of only seven states in the country that have not only avoided recession but shown positive growth in the last quarter. (ABC News: Majority of States Now in Recession)

State budgets need to be balanced each year, so using a completely supply side model is not ideal. There is a reason why states and cities with highest per-capita GDP rates are almost always amongst the highest in government expenditures. Using a Keynesian model when running a state government will help us get out of a recession or avoid one all together. So if that is the case, explain to me how the state of Massachusetts can raise infrastructure spending when $12b is suddenly cut from the state budget? It is basically impossible is the answer. The "new deal" and Keynesian economics is credited with getting us out of the great depression and even though many of the facets of the plan were flawed, it is a good model for us to follow. So an extreme tax cut is not always the best way to handle the downturn we are currently in.

Those think tanks you mentioned have their own agenda and aren't that conservative by any means. Think-tanks are sometimes non-profit still aren't always the best resource. You may also want to ask where they are getting some of their funding.

The keynes economic theory is just that...a theory. The economists that seem to be in control of many policies now follow the Keynes model, but that doesn't meen it is correct. Government spending and the keynes model doesn't always get you out of a recession. Also, they have adapted the Keynesian model a few times because the first "theory" didn't work as well at thought. The keynes's theory has become too common place and any other theories have been thrown to the side by the powers that be. There isn't going to be many government officials who are going to argue against the keynes theory because that would mean cutting government and getting rid of some of their jobs.

I enjoy watching Ron Paul argue against the Keynes's theory. Check some of them out on youtube. The Austrian school of economics is something interesting to looking into. The problem I see with government control and what has become Keynes's economics is that there ends up being price manipulation and it isn't a free market economy. The federal reserve has also made up money out of thin air causing inflation and giving loss to the american currency.

[Cart24]

Originally Posted by LeavingMA

Those think tanks you mentioned have their own agenda and aren't that conservative by any means. Think-tanks are sometimes non-profit still aren't always the best resource. You may also want to ask where they are getting some of their funding.

The keynes economic theory is just that...a theory. The economists that seem to be in control of many policies now follow the Keynes model, but that doesn't meen it is correct. Government spending and the keynes model doesn't always get you out of a recession. Also, they have adapted the Keynesian model a few times because the first "theory" didn't work as well at thought. The keynes's theory has become too common place and any other theories have been thrown to the side by the powers that be. There isn't going to be many government officials who are going to argue against the keynes theory because that would mean cutting government and getting rid of some of their jobs.

I enjoy watching Ron Paul argue against the Keynes's theory. Check some of them out on youtube. The Austrian school of economics is something interesting to looking into. The problem I see with government control and what has become Keynes's economics is that there ends up being price manipulation and it isn't a free market economy. The federal reserve has also made up money out of thin air causing inflation and giving loss to the american currency.

Well we could easily get into a year long debate on Keynes vs Hayek theories. I have studied both and each works depending on the situation and climate.

When I have some more time early next week we can continue the discussion, but Im sure you can agree that there are positives to both theories.

[smarty]

Originally Posted by mommytotwo

I was truly astonished at what they told me.

They said that if DH worked for the state for 10 years, he would be eligible for payments when retired. He would get something in the neighborhood of 60% of his highest salary, PLUS health insurance. And if we agreed to take a lower percentage, I could collect it if he died.

OMG! So he would have put in, what, 50K maybe (if that) then collected over 25K per year during retirement, plus medical benefits for the both of us? And that is if he stayed at his low salary range (which he wouldn't, his highest would have been 4x his earlier salary). It's insane. The man told me that the retirement really pays off if you hit the 10 years, but you really don't make out interest-wise if you don't stay 10 years.

I don't know if this is the same package all the state/city/town workers get but if so I can see where the money is going.

A person could easily collect far more in retirement than they even earned as an employee. How is that feasible? I just don't get it.

That's our amazing wonderful state. We are generous to those who served us. If one is on the receiving end... why would anyone want to have their BENEFIT cut? Now... That makes me want a job in the government...

Don't you love stories like Mass Pike former Chairman?
Amorello's change to sick leave policy violated law, ethics authority says - The Boston Globe

If there is a pile of money, everyone will want SOME. Just look at the pork around $750billion bail out package. Now even GM wants $10B ... Why can't I get any?

[IrisMGOK]

My friend in Massachusetts was afraid that he would be out of a job if they repealed the income tax, because the state agency he works for wouldn't be able to collect enough money to meet payroll. His agency provides care for the mentally disabled and special needs people, and he says they have a hard time finding qualified people to stay on as it is. Social programs like that always seem to be the first to suffer during budget cuts. So, he was happy to vote no.

[litlux]

It's a little late I suppose, but only eight states do not have an income tax. Forty two do, some much higher than Massachusetts, some lower.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

The people who want tax cuts have a right to ask for them. And the people have the right to decide if such cuts are worth the problems that would create.

As for waste in government, there is some, just as there is in business. There is no way to get 100% efficiency 100% of the time. I do wish government, and WalMart for that matter, were run like UPS. Now there is a company that knows how to manage things.

WalMart may claim to be a wonderful model, they certainly don't pay their employees much of a wage, but they do things like run out of ice melt in the northeast in the middle of January and never get any more into stock. If your local town did that, you would throw the bums out at the next election.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Originally Posted by litlux

It's a little late I suppose, but only eight states do not have an income tax. Forty two do, some much higher than Massachusetts, some lower.

In Florida, they have very high property tax and sales tax to offset the lack of income tax. The property taxes in Texas and NH are also very high. Alaska mooches of the government and gets payments from oil interests.

You will have to pay for things one way or the other. I'd much rather pay income tax than high property tax.

[LeavingMA]

Well, MA didn't pass ballot initiative 1 by scaring us that everything would fall apart. Well now they go and hike the tolls and might even hike the gas tax. And I'm sure everyone is still waiting for deval to lower your property taxes like he promised during his campaign. All that and all he has done is add more people to the MA government.

[findingmesomeday]

Originally Posted by LeavingMA

Well, MA didn't pass ballot initiative 1 by scaring us that everything would fall apart. Well now they go and hike the tolls and might even hike the gas tax. And I'm sure everyone is still waiting for deval to lower your property taxes like he promised during his campaign. All that and all he has done is add more people to the MA government.

He didn't even lie about it during his campaign. Where did the people of MA think he was going to get the money for all the programs he was proposing/all the spending he was planning?

[thenewNewEnglander]

Wow.. well worded.

Thank God that nonsense suicide initiative didnt pass.

I can see a reduction of the income tax, with an increase in the sales tax.. But not a repeal. Our fine state would have been destroyed by that and I dont know about you, but I love Mass and think we're kicking butt compared to the rest of this country. I'm not gonna be surprised if we gain a million people in the next decade! And in fact, I hope we do.

Originally Posted by litlux

And hidden in the income tax repeal are certain capital gains tax benefits for the rich folks.

But this has been attempted before and will not pass. Cut the state income tax and the money that goes to the cities and towns dries up, and the real estate taxes skyrocket.

As it is, Duval Patrick is cutting a billion dollars from the state budget, and it is affecting everything. There are tough times ahead without the repeal, and with no income tax, the state would empty out rather than fill up. Businesses depend on state services as well as the public.

[thenewNewEnglander]

But American manufacturing will benefit from a dollar decline. In the last year we've already seen this occur lock step with currency fluctuations.

Personally I'd rather see America switch back to domestic production, revive the export economy, let prices AND wages rise, and have a 50 or 100 trillion dollar economy... even if it means parity with the yuan.

Originally Posted by litlux

And hidden in the income tax repeal are certain capital gains tax benefits for the rich folks.

But this has been attempted before and will not pass. Cut the state income tax and the money that goes to the cities and towns dries up, and the real estate taxes skyrocket.

As it is, Duval Patrick is cutting a billion dollars from the state budget, and it is affecting everything. There are tough times ahead without the repeal, and with no income tax, the state would empty out rather than fill up. Businesses depend on state services as well as the public.

Originally Posted by LeavingMA

Those think tanks you mentioned have their own agenda and aren't that conservative by any means. Think-tanks are sometimes non-profit still aren't always the best resource. You may also want to ask where they are getting some of their funding.

The keynes economic theory is just that...a theory. The economists that seem to be in control of many policies now follow the Keynes model, but that doesn't meen it is correct. Government spending and the keynes model doesn't always get you out of a recession. Also, they have adapted the Keynesian model a few times because the first "theory" didn't work as well at thought. The keynes's theory has become too common place and any other theories have been thrown to the side by the powers that be. There isn't going to be many government officials who are going to argue against the keynes theory because that would mean cutting government and getting rid of some of their jobs.

I enjoy watching Ron Paul argue against the Keynes's theory. Check some of them out on youtube. The Austrian school of economics is something interesting to looking into. The problem I see with government control and what has become Keynes's economics is that there ends up being price manipulation and it isn't a free market economy. The federal reserve has also made up money out of thin air causing inflation and giving loss to the american currency.