New Residents: Now that you've moved to Mass, do you have any regrets? (Boston: taxes, living)

[holden125]

Originally Posted by BCreass

Limited discussion of politics is entirely relevant to this thread (and other relocation threads), because some people want to be around those who are politically "on the same page" as they are (at least, for the most part). As I am considering moving to MA in the future, I want to know about people's political opinions and beliefs, because I do plan to make friends and have intelligent, adult conversations with people I meet. Suffice to say, if MA was full of right-wing Christian fundamentalists, I don't think I'd move there (no offense to any right-wing Christian fundamentalists who may be reading this).

Thank you. It's the number one reason (on a long list of reasons) why I prefer to live here. It is therefore, as you say, entirely relevant to a discussion of local conditions.

[lrfox]

WOW! I apparently missed a heck of a discussion while I was away.

Excellent points, everyone. Holden, I agree with your points on mass transit not being profitable. As our system exists now, the fares have to be lower to encourage more riders as well as make it an affordable option for those with lower incomes. In order to make it viable and accessible, the fares have to be lower and they don't cover the cost of maintenance, operation and upkeep. With improved efficiency (we're a long way off right now) and easier access for more people, the system could be profitable like many of the systems in Japan and some in Europe. It's a matter of accessibility, ease of use (vs. automobile), affordability, operational costs. We can get to the point where mass transit lines are profitable enough to even be privatized... but I'm getting ahead of myself there.

BCreass, love you're enthusiasm. You're absolutely correct on politics being very relevant to this and other threads. ESPECIALLY when we're discussing mass transit (and the related politics). I also agree that I want to know about the general political tendencies of the people I'm going to be living around. Good luck in trying to move up this way.

bluewatergirl, I hear you... I love the way Eastern Massachusetts (and much of New England) is developed and continues to develop. I wish there were a bit less "NIMBY-ism" in some regards, but I can't argue that it hasn't been beneficial in many situations.

In this dawning age of seeking alternative energies, lowering reliance on the automobile, and environmental awareness, Boston and Eastern Mass. are in good shape to continue to grow and develop.

[Bimmer5]

Originally Posted by holden125

I thought the comment was meant to suggest that the economic situation was similar to that of upstate NY, not that there was an orientation toward it.

As far as NYS goes, the widely held perception upstate is that they pay high taxes to subsidize NYC, but nothing could be further from the truth. The NYC area gets a lot less back from Albany than it pays. However, the state's policy has been excessively focused on NYC. As usual, NYC has placed a large part of its eggs in the finance business basket, and that particular basket was not necessarily the best one to bet on.

I've long felt that it made no sense for housing prices in Boston and NYC to be out of reach, while people are sitting in crushing traffic jams, while whole neighborhoods in Syracuse or Springfield need a boost badly. When our manufacturing base was much stronger all of these places could thrive, but now virtually all of our smaller and mid-sized cities have hit hard times. I'd propose tailoring policy to draw businesses and residents to those areas with incentive schemes. The policy would have to be tailored to getting good jobs and educated people to be willing to go there. I'd love to see places like Worcester, Springfield, Lowell, New Bedford, etc. and the cities of upstate NY thrive again, and I'd love to see less traffic on 128.

I couldnt agree more with this statement. I currently live in New Bedford, and I moved here from Burlington VT, but have liven in Boston and other areas of MA as well in the past. When I came to New Bedford, I knew nothing about this city, and immediately just considered it to be another Brockton, and Fall River, but I couldnt have been more wrong! This city has some of the best history in the US and such potential to rise again, but with no industry here, no train to Boston/Providence, and the location it is in now, I dont know if it ever will be what it once was (BTW New Bedford was the richest city in the US twice! Who would have thought that! But the Great Depression killed it for good...well, I hope not)
I have an office in the city now, and rent is cheap, but I am in a building that has such history to it, on cobblestone roads and lantern lights, at night this place looks like london! Unfortunately, it does have a very down economy, for the reasons stated in the quote and my statement above, so the crime rate here is higher than one would like, and it does draw some very low class people to this city because the cheap living, but, if we could find a way to create more industry here, what a beautiful place to spend your workday!

[Bimmer5]

Originally Posted by lrfox

I respectfully disagree. It's not a sham. Not even in the slightest bit.

We simply cannot afford to sustain the lifestyle many Americans want both economically or environmentally. If you think it's as simple as comparing upfront costs, you're severely mistaken. People will "partake" in that service if it suits them, and that's the key. We need to build transit lines that suit the people. In fact, some places have such extensive and well used public transit that the service not only creates a better environment, but turns a profit... that's how it should be done and it CAN be done here with a little effort. No one is saying no one should have cars, but we shouldn't rely on them to the degree we do today.

There is no way that we can afford to burn fossil fuels at the rate we do and hope to sustain current lifestyles. The sub-prime mortgage crisis is a prime example of what happens when you, "let Americans be Americans" and millions of people try to live beyond their means by purchasing the piece of the pie that they simply can't afford. I'm willing to bet anyone who wanted to "live the dream" and now has no job and a foreclosed home would love to live in "Euro poverty."

Well, First, you make a great point, and I just made a similar statement about public transportation and access to industry is my main focus, not the environment. Dont get me wrong, I agree with most about the environment but we have bigger and more important reasons to consider and move on other energy sources, and heck, I care more about our $ going to our enemies than I do about the polar ice caps right about now. As for "Let Americans be Americans" I take a small issue with that statement... I agree our government allowed regulations to be lifted and the "Hogs" came and ate as much as they can swallow, and those same "Hogs" now take issue with the possibility of higher tax's? I say good.... I also say that the Euro mindset has always been, in my eyes, a better way of life, all around, BUT America allows you to reach goals you can not reach in other places, and although the Europeans make more $ PER capita, they dont have the same opportunities, and one can not reach as far as they can here... they also have VERY high fuel and energy costs. We got screwed by Wallstreet, and greedy folks at the Broker level, and I do agree our government should have NOT lifted the regulations it had in place, but at the time, I dont think anyone really thought this was going to happen, not until it was too late at least. I will end by saying, if we didnt allow "Americans to be Americans" we wouldnt be talking about this on a website, or a computer... Bill gates, in europe, would never have created Microsoft, and Steve Jobs in europe would have never created Apple. The internet (who will kill me for this statement) was created by Al Gore spearheading the committee to take it from a closed Military communications tool, to the World Wide Web... so everyone, around the world, has Americans to thank for every facet of computers or todays communications. God Bless America! (just it would be better if we all had August off like Europe :0 )

[dognh]

I'll bite. If you believe Al Gore invented the Internet - you'll be right at home in Mass.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by Bimmer5

Well, First, you make a great point, and I just made a similar statement about public transportation and access to industry is my main focus, not the environment...

I agree with you. I think that you make some good points about the environment. To add one little thing, I feel that the environment and economy are not mutually exclusive. Today more than ever, they go hand in hand. Green jobs, buildings, transit, etc IS big business. There's money to be made in a green economy. My feeling is that a focus on the economy now can lead to long-term environmental benefits. The example of using mass transit as a stimulus is a good one. Mass transit obviously is better for the environment, but it also creates opportunities for jobs. Development happens around transit lines thus creating job opportunities while also helping the environment. It's exciting that we can do both at the same time.

On another note, I loved reading about your enjoyment of New Bedford. I lived for 10 years in nearby Assonet (went to high school in Lakeville). Prior to living there, I lived in Maryland and Providence and had the same assumptions about New Bedford being the same as Fall River or Brockton. Boy, I couldn't have been more wrong.

I love New Bedford. I think it's one of Massachusetts' most underrated cities. The few times I've been in the area recently, I've been quite happy. I get to visit 8-12 times per year and recently it seems like new stuff is popping up every time I'm in town. I ate ate the Waterfront Grille last summer and it's fantastic as is the Ocean Explorium and many of the other newer establishments. I had a beer the other night at the Pour Farm (opened last fall) on Purchase and had some great wings at the Rose Alley Ale House on Front Street (just opened a few weeks ago). Thy Symphony is fantastic and so are the mainstays like Candleworks, Cobblestones, Freestones, etc. Groups like AHA and Downtown New Bedford Inc have done a great job revitalizing the downtown area, but (like you said), there needs to be more industry so the WHOLE city can revitalize. I think New Bedford has one of the best small city downtowns in New England, but needs more jobs and opportunities for the whole city to improve.

The commuter rail is a big part of that. Rail service has worked wonders for towns and cities along the routes. Lowell, Haverhill, and even Worcester can attribute much (if not most) of their recent re-births to the presence of rail. I believe that rail service to Boston has the ability to do all that and more to New Bedford. Downtown Lowell and Worcester don't have the charm New Bedford does. They also don't have the ferry service to major tourist destinations that New Bedford Does. How many Bostonians do you think will relish the ability to get from Downtown Boston (with bike in tow) ALL the way to Martha's Vinyard or Cuttyhunk without stepping foot in an automobile? These people will be greeted in New Bedford by charming shops, restaurants and cobbled streets. They'll be surprised at how New Bedford's whaling district resembles a much more expansive version of Nantucket's Main St. (heck, they were built at the same time around the same industry.... whaling) or as you said, London (on a miniature scale). Downtown New Bedford has improved so much, but with rail service, the city as a whole is going to explode. Access to Boston jobs via rail for people in New Bedford and an added spotlight on the city will be the lift New Bedford needs. I'm looking forward to Development in New Bedford around the stations (particularly downtown), an expanded industrial park and rejuvination of some of the outer residential areas.

I'm curious, Bimmer5, how do you feel about New Bedford as compared to your old hometown of Burlington VT? I have spent the last 4 years in Portland ME and Portland and Burlington are considered (rightfully so) to be some of New England's most pristine and charming cities (I certainly don't disagree). I do see a lot of similarities between New Bedford and Portland. The charming cobbled streets of the Old Port and the Whaling District have striking similarities (though the architecture is quite different). The way these historic districts border newer city cores (Arts District along Congress St. in Portland and Upper Union along Pleasant and Union in New Bedford) is strikingly similar. Even the historic residential architecture in each city's West End looks eerily similar. Portland's just lightyears ahead in terms of renovations and revitalization. I blogged about the similarites on this site if you want to check out those entries and let me know your thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

Anyway, loved your posts.... you should write more often!

[Bimmer5]

Originally Posted by holden125

Hmmm...now this is giving me ideas. Too bad I don't have a pick-up truck. A propos, a couple of months before the 2004 election, I was driving my then-girlfriend's car on a mountain road in Colorado. She had a Kerry/Edwards sticker on the back window. Some guy in a pickup truck covered in mud started tailgating me, going around hairpin turns at about 70. Finally I pulled into a clearing on the side of the road and the guy pulled in and started yelling about liberal commie terrorists or something, then drove off in a cloud of dust. That night I'm walking on a quiet street in town after having dinner and the same guy drives up and starts his routine again. I'm walking and he's driving at about 5 mph yelling at me. Finally I told him to shut his mouth, and he gets out of the truck and starts shoving me and yelling about "America-haters" and "bad Americans." Push came to shove (literally) and I wound up in the only fight I've been in in 20 years, right in the middle of the street. And I won that fight pretty decisively.

I left the guy sprawled on the ground and told him if I ever saw him again and he suggested I didn't have a right to vote for whomever I pleased, he would sorely regret it. I don't go around doing this kind of thing and I don't condone it, but it was quite cathartic. At this point I had been driving for two weeks solid through places Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and encountering thinly veiled threats of violence the whole time, from fellow guests at the Motel 6 or gas station attendants or random strangers, all because of that Kerry sticker. I had about enough of these people suggesting that they had some kind of monopoly on my country and that the state that started the country somehow didn't count as part of it anymore. Say what you will about Massachusetts, but I've never heard of anyone with a Bush or McCain sticker actually being stalked on a deserted road or jumped in the street for it.

I've been to 46 states and I don't regret going to a single place I've visited. I thought all of those places were fascinating to visit, but honestly I could see myself living in maybe 3 of those 46 states (since the missing ones are North Dakota, Utah, Idaho, and Alaska, I think it's safe to say I wouldn't fit in there either). Of course I am biased, but of all 50 I love Massachusetts most of all and the more I travel the more I appreciate it. Whenever I hear all this stuff about Massachusetts being too liberal, too unfriendly, too expensive, etc., I basically know that there's a dividing line of what people value and that person and I are not on the same side of it. These god-awful places that people extol because they're cheaper are cheaper for a reason.

Well, we have had some similar experiences when facing radical opposition it would seem. I was living in VT during the 2004 election, and worked as a volunteer for Kerry in NH (we took that state back at least!) but I remember when I was in FL once, and got hassled because my origin MA/South Boston accent reared its head out (I have lived in so many states, I usually can control my accent, because I am used to it, but every now and then, you can tell where my roots are) so a couple of guys start giving me crap about MA and being liberal etc... I BTW much prefer the term "Liberal" over "Progressive" and to define my reasoning, lookup Liberal, and then, move to VT and understand WHAT Progressive really means! The Progressive movement is so vast there, that they are now taking rights away. If you own property, and want to cut a tree down in your property, you have to apply to the town, and they solicit your neighbors for their opinion before giving you the green light, and if they say no, and you do anyways, you can go to prison. That is NOT Liberal, nor American... but back to my likeness story... I was eating soft shell crab, and listening to them butcher the english language and get all the facts wrong on every scale and level while trying to tear me down. I did say where my roots were, right? I finally got so sick of hearing it, I ripped into them, and when one guy went to lunge at me, I kicked the stool out from under him before he could, and grabbed him by the.... well, lets just say, 3 fingers on ones throat with a little pressure, he makes sure his friends dont do anything to escalate the situation. I walked out of there safely, and with the bartenders phone number... she really like how I handled the situation.

[Bimmer5]

Originally Posted by dognh

I'll bite. If you believe Al Gore invented the Internet - you'll be right at home in Mass.

In my message, did I say "Invented the Internet"? NO and neither did Al Gore in that interview... that was Republican SPIN... He did however, head the committee that CREATED the internet for the Military, and then to expose it to the public... dont say anything before you look stupid, look it up!

[Bimmer5]

Originally Posted by lrfox

I agree with you. I think that you make some good points about the environment. To add one little thing, I feel that the environment and economy are not mutually exclusive. Today more than ever, they go hand in hand. Green jobs, buildings, transit, etc IS big business. There's money to be made in a green economy. My feeling is that a focus on the economy now can lead to long-term environmental benefits. The example of using mass transit as a stimulus is a good one. Mass transit obviously is better for the environment, but it also creates opportunities for jobs. Development happens around transit lines thus creating job opportunities while also helping the environment. It's exciting that we can do both at the same time.

On another note, I loved reading about your enjoyment of New Bedford. I lived for 10 years in nearby Assonet (went to high school in Lakeville). Prior to living there, I lived in Maryland and Providence and had the same assumptions about New Bedford being the same as Fall River or Brockton. Boy, I couldn't have been more wrong.

I love New Bedford. I think it's one of Massachusetts' most underrated cities. The few times I've been in the area recently, I've been quite happy. I get to visit 8-12 times per year and recently it seems like new stuff is popping up every time I'm in town. I ate ate the Waterfront Grille last summer and it's fantastic as is the Ocean Explorium and many of the other newer establishments. I had a beer the other night at the Pour Farm (opened last fall) on Purchase and had some great wings at the Rose Alley Ale House on Front Street (just opened a few weeks ago). Thy Symphony is fantastic and so are the mainstays like Candleworks, Cobblestones, Freestones, etc. Groups like AHA and Downtown New Bedford Inc have done a great job revitalizing the downtown area, but (like you said), there needs to be more industry so the WHOLE city can revitalize. I think New Bedford has one of the best small city downtowns in New England, but needs more jobs and opportunities for the whole city to improve.

The commuter rail is a big part of that. Rail service has worked wonders for towns and cities along the routes. Lowell, Haverhill, and even Worcester can attribute much (if not most) of their recent re-births to the presence of rail. I believe that rail service to Boston has the ability to do all that and more to New Bedford. Downtown Lowell and Worcester don't have the charm New Bedford does. They also don't have the ferry service to major tourist destinations that New Bedford Does. How many Bostonians do you think will relish the ability to get from Downtown Boston (with bike in tow) ALL the way to Martha's Vinyard or Cuttyhunk without stepping foot in an automobile? These people will be greeted in New Bedford by charming shops, restaurants and cobbled streets. They'll be surprised at how New Bedford's whaling district resembles a much more expansive version of Nantucket's Main St. (heck, they were built at the same time around the same industry.... whaling) or as you said, London (on a miniature scale). Downtown New Bedford has improved so much, but with rail service, the city as a whole is going to explode. Access to Boston jobs via rail for people in New Bedford and an added spotlight on the city will be the lift New Bedford needs. I'm looking forward to Development in New Bedford around the stations (particularly downtown), an expanded industrial park and rejuvination of some of the outer residential areas.

I'm curious, Bimmer5, how do you feel about New Bedford as compared to your old hometown of Burlington VT? I have spent the last 4 years in Portland ME and Portland and Burlington are considered (rightfully so) to be some of New England's most pristine and charming cities (I certainly don't disagree). I do see a lot of similarities between New Bedford and Portland. The charming cobbled streets of the Old Port and the Whaling District have striking similarities (though the architecture is quite different). The way these historic districts border newer city cores (Arts District along Congress St. in Portland and Upper Union along Pleasant and Union in New Bedford) is strikingly similar. Even the historic residential architecture in each city's West End looks eerily similar. Portland's just lightyears ahead in terms of renovations and revitalization. I blogged about the similarites on this site if you want to check out those entries and let me know your thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

Anyway, loved your posts.... you should write more often!

To answer your question, first, my hometown is Bridgewater, and I had Family in Southie, Quincy, Dortchester so spent LOTS of valuable adolescent years in those cities, and I also lived in the Symphony district in Boston as well. I did however live in VT twice, once in Waterbury VT. down the road from the Ben and Jerry's factory... got to watch some of the making of "Me, Myself and Irene" and then in Burlington the second time, right on Lake Champlain, in a Penthouse condo... SO, I REALLY liked my Penthouse better than my house now but I really dont think there is much of a comparison. New Bedford has lots of history, and Burlington doesnt. The best place in Burlington is Church St. and that was actually designed to look like Harvard Square... go figure! So for he history etc... New Bedford takes the top spot, but Burlington has been listed as the #1 most desired city to live in more than once, and that is because you have the waterfront of the lake, the nice Church St. area, with LOTS of culture, and people strumming guitars in the street, some side shows going on while having a beer on the sidewalk and enjoying the slow pace of the good life. If you asked me, just city wise, where I liked it the most... Burlington VT was the best, but the winters are horrendous, and the economy is still below MA, the tax's are through the roof, and not in line with where they should be (Howard Dean did that, to raise school levels in the state of VT because they were some of the worst in the US, and although the tax's are sky high now, they are #1 in the US now in standardized test scores... so it worked, but at a cost) so we keep some ties to VT, up in Milton (Great if you own multiple cars...lol) and travel there often, but we moved back here to buy property in New Bedford, just because of the reasons you were talking about, now, as long as I can hold on to them, they will make me money in the long run... I will say, the history, architecture etc.. was a nice and welcomed surprise, but I own property in some of the lower class areas of the city as well (I live in the west end) and I can honestly say, this is a city of "no class" when it comes to 60% or better of the people who live here now, and this is sad. We went to a car show at Buttonwood Park last year, and there were little kids looking at all the cars, while a bunch of the people who were showing there cars, were blasting 'Gangsta Rap' at full volume, and with every bad thing you could imagine being said in the lyrics... I am not against Rap, not at all, I actually like some of it, but there is a time and a place, and that was neither. That is my major point when I say a city of no class, and it really does sadden me. I need to try some of these places you were talking about (the new ones, I am a regular at Candleworks and Freestones)... how were they? Have you been to Cafe Balena?

[dognh]

Originally Posted by Bimmer5

In my message, did I say "Invented the Internet"? NO and neither did Al Gore in that interview... that was Republican SPIN... He did however, head the committee that CREATED the internet for the Military, and then to expose it to the public... dont say anything before you look stupid, look it up!

Excuse me "created"

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet" Gore said when asked to cite accomplishments that separate him from another Democratic presidential hopeful, former Sen. Bill Bradley of New Jersey, during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN on March 9, 1999.

Again I stand by my statement. If you agree with Al Gore, you'll love Mass.