Confused about the million dollar+ houses and the supposed "upper-middle" class factor associated with it (Boston: best towns, transplants)

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by JBTD

Lighten up, stop caring about what people think, and drop the "I have an Ivy education" attitude. Jeez. There are wonderful towns and amazing people all over this country. Get to know us before constructing your wall and stop stereotyping.

Ahhhhhh...nothing like those easily offendable sensibilities...

<<Get to know us...>>

"Us" who?

[ogre]

Originally Posted by syracusa

I see, that makes sense. Thank you. I thought that in places like Andover, most children went to public schools exactly because the schools are so good.

But it's all going in circles. The wealthy avoid public schools by default, regardless of how good they are. It could be "a cootie" issue. :-)

I'm unfamiliar with Atlanta's suburbs, so I don't know about the status of various towns there. Regarding the Boston area, though, I'll reiterate what others have said here: It's not an all-or-nothing situation in this area. It's not a situation where the towns you listed in the opening post are regarded as THE status towns and all the other towns are looked down on. Rather, as others have pointed out, many towns in the Boston area, not just the few especially wealthy places, have their share of professionals, sometimes mixed in with those running small businesses and those who have become successful in the trades, etc. There's not a lot of hangup about the notion that you have to live in Newton, Lincoln, Andover, etc., etc., or be regarded as a nothing.

You also were wondering about who these professors were who were living in the especially expensive towns. Again, I wouldn't get too hung up on this, but since you seemed curious, I'll say that I think you're most likely going to find that it's not the typical professor who lives in these towns, unless the person has invested well, has gradually worked up the ladder with house refurbishing, or has family money. Aside from these possibilities, most professors who live in the really pricey towns are likely to be former CEO's who have made career changes by joining the faculty at Harvard B-school, those who have made similar career changes by becoming profs at MIT after making big bucks as engineers, M.D.'s on medical school faculties, etc.

Regarding schools, and to work back around to the quoted post, it's not always the case that kids from the wealthy towns go to private schools. It depends on the town. I happen to know quite a lot about Weston. There are kids from Weston who go to private schools, but most go to the public schools, which the town puts a lot into making first-rate.

I'm not sure how the test scores are in Weston. I've heard that they're not as good as you might expect, given the town's reputation. If that's the case, then this would be a good example of why you need to look really closely at all the criteria the magazine articles include when rating school systems. Weston's school system is a powerhouse when it comes to the all-around experience the kids have. For example, the arts programs are exceptionally strong. Every year Weston High School sends numbers of students in its musical groups--both vocalists and instrumentalists--to the (highly selective, as I'm given to understand) state music festival. Each winter there is a statewide high school drama festival which involves competition over several weeks. Weston's theater group pretty much annually makes it to the finals. They have won the whole thing a couple of times. And they do this every year with an original play the kids create themselves, even though it's not a requirement of the state festival that the plays be originally developed by the groups performing. The school's sports teams have had their ups and downs, but over the years they've had state-level champions in swimming, track, football, tennis, golf, wrestling, field hockey. May be a few others. I'm not sure about all of them. In other words, the kids there get the kind of all-around educational experience that may not be taken into account in ratings of school systems that heavily emphasize test scores. Just an example of how right Smarty is about expressing the notion, in his own inimitable style, that test scores, shall we say, need to be taken with a grain of salt, maybe a few grains.

So, the schools in most towns in this area are good. That's not to say that you wouldn't want to find the best school system you can, but it does help to avoid relying heavily on published rankings, which may be narrow in their criteria. And, again, there are plenty of nice towns, with lots of professional folks living there, other than the big-name wealthy towns. When it comes to the quality of life in the towns around this area, it's not all-or-nothing, and it's generally not viewed as vitally important for one's status to live in one of the really wealthy towns. Sure, there are individuals who consider this important, but the prevailing attitudes in this area are not all about measuring people by their addresses.

[Pioneer Valley Girl]

One of the really nice things about Massachusetts is that well educated, professional people live in all areas of the state in all sorts of towns and cities (I'm not saying there's no other state like this, but we do have our fair share of highly educated people). Professors may live in the inner city or the tonier suburbs or somewhere in between. Despite all the Springfield and Holyoke bashing that goes on here on my current end of the state, I know an incredible amount of professors and other professionals who live in that area (although I would not recommend many public city schools with the exception of Latin in Boston, etc). I'm sure I don't have to tell you that nearly every neighborhood in Boston and Cambridge is ripe with these types, despite some neighborhoods reputations as "bad". Same goes for the suburbs.

Also, the "best" school systems aren't always the richest. Sure, Newton has great public schools but I know places like Andover have had problems with funding, etc. What do you want in a school system? Lots of AP courses? Good MCAS scores? Good funding? Depending on your crieteria your list may be quite different than someone elses for the "best" school system.

[redpanda]

syracusa--I think you will find that you'll be very happy here. There is no dearth of opportunity for intellectual discussions that happen for their own sake here. Not everyone is a careerist, but you will definitely find a good number of people who are passionate about their life's work.

One anecdote that I love to tell to illustrate the education levels you'll find around here is this: My son and I were at a playgroup with 11 other moms when he was a baby, and somehow the topic of education came up (it came up in an organic way...if memory serves me one of the women was getting ready to defend her dissertation and was stressed about it). Well, between the 12 of us, there were 5 who held a PhD, one JD, and 6 who all held a terminal master's of some sort. We laughed at our "overeducation" and how very "Boston" it was that we all held advanced degrees. Everyone was sweet and humble, no blowhard "I HAVE AN ADVANCED DEGREE!" BS...like I said it came up organically.

Oh, and as an aside on what you noticed about the bookcases? We are selling our home this year (it's under agreement right now, fingers crossed!) and we boxed up nearly ALL our books before putting it on the market. Books = clutter. Buyers don't want to see clutter, and you don't want to risk alienating a potential buyer who may not share the same interests or views as yourself. Only 2 sparsely-filled bookcases remain in our house, and the books we left out are all innocuous. I think you'll find that many people do things of that sort when selling...HGTV has had that effect on the housing market.

[LeavingMA]

You will also find people who live beyond on their means and pay to live in the expensive homes and towns, but don't have 2 cents in a savings account.

[Beachcomber4]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Ahhhhhh...nothing like those easily offendable sensibilities...

<<Get to know us...>>

"Us" who?

I do not think this person was offended, he's just "calling it like he sees it" and honestly, that is how people operate in Massachusetts.

When I read through your commentary on my post, I got alot from it. I'm wondering if Atlanta is a highly materialistic, socially divided city. In that, I mean are there lines drawn between the rich and the poor, the educated and the uneducated which neither crosses? Do you have to show your wealth in order to be considered important? Because as has been posted numerous times here, you do not see that here as much. You speak often of your education and at times, smacks of sense of entitlement and an incredulous that one so highly educated can not afford to live in the most desirable zip codes. I can understand that disappointment. From a young age, we are taught learning and education is paramount to success, unfortunately success is measured in different ways and some career choices do not pay as well as others. But in a highly educated place like Massachusetts, it's not unusal to see people with very impressive jobs living in not so impressive looking homes from the outside. You speak of "million dollar babies" and expectations etc. I think you have to ask yourself why it is you are so worried about these things. What I have found is parents who are not impressed with themselves raise children who value the person, not the *stuff*. Your children could very well end up socializing with trust fund babies who are well rounded, compassionate children. Don't judge a family by their bank account. Look at the Kennedy family. People of great wealth and privilege who chose to serve those with less. That is a common theme among old money Massachusetts families. While their compound in Hyannis Port is lovely, it is not ostentatious nor grandly furnished. Family member drive a variety of vehicles, many older model pick up trucks or mini vans.

The reality is, you do not find many people here wondering how people afford their homes, or lamenting that they do not get the "breaks" in life. They do not discuss their credentials. True old Massachusetts monied people do not flaunt wealth and do not feel the need to have the biggest or best of anything. It's just the way things are and I think the poster you addressed was trying to explain that in a truly Massachusetts Yankee fashion.

I understand you are experiencing a flush of emotions and apprehensions with this move so I hope my comments are not too harsh and are of some help to you. Massachusetts is a study in the rewards that come to one through Yankee ingenuity, frugality and persistance.

[holden125]

Originally Posted by syracusa

So the question would be: how can people who work for a living (meaning they have "salaries" instead of being independently wealthy) live in million dollar plus houses? Because this is pretty much all I see in those towns. The few houses I saw at 500,000 and below, something we could conceivably squeeze in with me having a job too, were the kind of houses that would require fierce snobbery to put up with the ugly, petty, run down factor in exchange for getting into an "It" town.

I'm a bit lost here, to be honest. You were talking about million-dollar plus, then about $500,000 and under. That leaves out the whole $500,000-$1,000,000 range, and there are plenty of nice homes in that range in plenty of nice towns. In some of the places you name, you'd likely be looking at $750K and up for larger places.

It's been said to you before, and not in the nicest terms as I recall, but it's true: forget Atlanta. This is not Atlanta. Homes are much more expensive here. Frankly, I am eternally grateful that this is not Atlanta, but there are sacrifices in square footage, etc., to be made.

A few years ago I was living in a small and unattractive apartment in Boston, and someone I knew, my own age, arguably less impressive educational credentials, moved to Dallas and bought a massive home for barely $200,000. At the time I was wondering how I'd ever figure out how to own anything around here, and was pretty upset about the whole thing. A friend asked me, "if you could move to Dallas tomorrow, would you trade?" And the answer was no. Never in a million years. Same for Atlanta or any number of other places. Better a small shared apartment here than a big house there. And with that I made my peace with it.

Plenty of other people in this area have asked themselves the same question, and decided to leave New England for cheaper shores. In the end, the people here are (1) quite well to do and able to afford it here; (2) frustrated at the high cost of living (and winter, etc.) and hoping to leave, or, most relevant, (3) happy to be here and fully aware that their money buys less house than it does in other parts of the country.

Though there are some signs of flashy materialism that were less visible a short while ago, it's entirely true that people in Massachusetts tend to keep it under their vest a lot more. Go to Martha's Vineyard and you'll find people worth $100 million driving a 20-year-old Volvo station wagon with 320,000 miles on it.

Re schools: The United States is, obviously, a vast country. There are tons of publications that purport to rank schools. I would ignore virtually all of them, particularly since they all contradict each other. I don't know anything at all about your high school in Georgia, but I can assure you that many public schools near Boston are quite good, and that the most important thing is that your home is a place where the kids are encouraged to learn and exposed to intelligent conversation. You'll be fine on that score.

[syracusa]

I just wanted to say that I am thankful for all the information I received on this thread and the other one I started, whether the information was factual or in the shape of attitudes, and whether it came from unassuming people, grouchy people or touchy people. I have been getting exactly what I need out of such information and it is certainly helping in our effort to put together the puzzle of what kind of fit we might be for MA (and MA for us).

Overall, it is encouraging. Holden and beachcomber, I heard (loud and clear) your frustration with the topic of this thread, which I will confess, was a tad rhetorical. So if I may, I have a few clarifications to bring by answering directly some of your "en guarde!" lines. I sincerely believe that the questions I posed in this thread and the argument I made in it have been misconstrued under not so positive emotional impulses.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

I'm wondering if Atlanta is a highly materialistic, socially divided city.

Yes, it is. Just like the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

In that, I mean are there lines drawn between the rich and the poor, the educated and the uneducated which neither crosses?

Yes, there are. Largely so, of course. Again, just like in the rest of the world today.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

Do you have to show your wealth in order to be considered important?

I appreciate you sounding like my hypothetical therapist, but really, I don't have to show anything. Do many people routinely do it in Atlanta? Yes.
Do I have wild, secret dreams about being able to do it myself? No.
Not only no, but the concept makes me a tad squimmish, unless I become some head of state/kingdom in which case I would insist on having a nice palace to receive dignitaries in (White House might need some perk-ups).
But if you read my posts without the emotional pinch, you will see that I honestly never brought under discussion a professional's God-given right to showcase wealth, or anyone else's for that matter, save the Queen.

What do you understand by "showing off wealth?"
Living in a house with windows larger than a prison cell? With plumbing not about to completely break apart on you? With ceilings many men would rub their heads against when entering the room? What to say about the construction materials such "houses" are made of, after all...
With all due respect, all I said was that many of the houses I saw at quite offensive prices for ANY mortal (including professionals with good degrees), looked downright miserable.

I really do not care what other people think of me when it comes to lifestyle choices - as another "offended" poster implied - I only care about what I think; and I think those houses smack of unhealthy and are horribly overpriced for what they actually are; which could, of course, take us to a complex debate about the economic system that creates such housing cost aberrations in the first place, or better yet, a discussion about why many "mortals" attempt to get in there, madness notwithstanding.
But this would be too much, I agree.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

Because as has been posted numerous times here, you do not see that here as much.

This is wonderful news.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

You speak often of you education and at times, smacks of sense of entitlement and an incredulous that one so highly educated can not afford to live in the most desirable zip codes.

Again, take the emotional pinch out, and you will see, upon re-reading my posts that "often" means "once". I only mentioned my education as an abstract qualifier, along with other parameters that would define our overall situation as a family. Had I not, I might have received answers along the lines of..."well, people in those areas usually hold graduate degrees, many from top schools, they have professional careers, have worked very hard their entire lives... the Jazz".
To preempt the Jazz, I mentioned the parameters in the most neutral, most abstract manner possible - for the sake of providing a realistic framework; but you failed to notice my other line where I very humbly emphasized that I am aware I would be nothing special in that area, considering that many have similar or more impressive backgrounds. Which still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to the "self-made" route in the "professions", there isn't a whole lot more anyone can do. There is MORE, but not a WHOLE LOT more.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

I can understand that disappointment. From a young age, we are taught learning and education is paramount to success, unfortunately success is measured in different ways and some career choices do not pay as well as
others.

Oh, nooooo! But thank you for petting me on the head. But I mean, reeaally? I had always thought that when you work really hard, like...you know...like, giving your 100%, and you know...do the best you can, and be like...you know, like...a really hard worker...you can be whatever you wanna be in America!!! (That "whatever" being "a wealth showcaser").

I know this to be true because my undergraduate students from Georgia tell me so all the time!

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

But in a highly educated place like Massachusetts, it's not unusal to see people with very impressive jobs living in not so impressive looking homes from the outside.

The only comment I can come up with here is "no kidding!".

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

You speak of "million dollar babies" and expectations etc. I think you have to ask yourself why it is you are so worried about these things.

OK. I asked. Here is the answer I got from "the self". I will illustrate it with a real story that happened to some acquaintances of ours. Like any parents, they wanted good school district for kids. So "good" they went for. Made the necessary sacrifice, accepted not-so-desirable house (still well above what I saw in MA) in said good area, spent a few years...until they made an honest and informed decision to move the H out. Why? Through the inevitable interaction with schoolmates, their children were constantly exposed to disgusting levels of material decadence and what they considered really messed-up values. They felt that this was poisonous for their kids and that their expectations and perceptions of what life is all about were getting dangerously distorted. So they moved the kids into a lesser school. Unfortunately, in GA "lesser" and "diverse" does not amount to the oh-so-charming-and-authentic environment that MA posters seem to see in their "mainstream" public schools. In GA, "lesser" really means "lesser". Just look at how its public education system is ranked; and rankings aside, you can smell the "it sucks" just about everywhere.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

What I have found is parents who are not impressed with themselves raise children who value the person, not the *stuff*.

Huh??

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

Your children could very well end up socializing with trust fund babies who are well rounded, compassionate children. Don't judge a family by their bank account. Look at the Kennedy family. People of great wealth and privilege who chose to serve those with less. That is a common theme among old money Massachusetts families. While their compound in Hyannis Port is lovely, it is not ostentatious nor grandly furnished. Family member drive a variety of vehicles, many older model pick up trucks or mini vans.

While I appreciate the Kennedy family (and all others like them) for their good intentions, grace and low-key approach to privilege, I do not believe in "class-blindness" just like I do not believe in "color-blindness".
It is certainly "classy" not to talk about such ...well..."unimportant" and "vulgar" little details like money, but it is also lame to pretend (especially on an anonymous forum getting to bottom-line issues) that socio-economic status does not have very serious ramifications and consequences in just about 1 million ways. America's beautiful elephant in the room!

I would certainly remain concerned with my children's values and perceptions of life as a result of interaction with "million dollar babies", regardless of whether their homes look like some insanely impressive Atlanta mansion or like the Kennedy compound.

This is not to say that I think all such "babies" would mean danger. I know some are raised wonderfully and graciously (how sad and unforgivable when they are not!) but most have a fundamentally different psychological make-up from the rest of society. Not a "good" or "bad" make up, just a DIFFERENT one, which lovey as it may be, would not fit my kids very well, as we will never have the wealth to support such life orientation.

At the same time, the reality remains that the rich have the resources - in money AND time- to produce good schools in their area; not just through material resources, but also through well-educated children FROM HOME.
When mommies, nannies and tutors have all the time in the world to stay on top of that child...guess what's gonna come out?? A well-educated child that will do well in school, and along with others like him/her, will provide an incentive for yours to do at least as well. There!

This is where the dilemma of many struggling, well-educated middle class parents lie and which I am not going to apologize for: they want the good academic environment in the "rich" school districts, but they could do without the decadent values that often (not always) come with it.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

The reality is, you do not find many people here wondering how people afford their homes, or lamenting that they do not get the "breaks" in life. They do not discuss their credentials. True old Massachusetts monied people do not flaunt wealth and do not feel the need to have the biggest or best of anything. It's just the way things are and I think the poster you addressed was trying to explain that in a truly Massachusetts Yankee fashion.

Again, how classy. Thank you for teaching me about the ways of the Old Money but I have had an entire Europe instructing me on this topic during my first 25 years of life.
But let me add this: if they do this "classy" thing even in intimate circles, or even on anonymous and very PRACTICAL forums, where no such 'classy' filters are really necessary, on the contrary, they are downright misleading...then how hypocritical too!

That being said, I remain overall optimistic about what I read on MA.

Thank you again.

[holden125]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Holden and beachcomber, I heard (loud and clear) your frustration with the topic of this thread, which I will confess, was a tad rhetorical. So if I may, I have a few clarifications to bring by answering directly some of your "en guarde!" lines. I sincerely believe that the questions I posed in this thread and the argument I made in it have been misconstrued under not so positive emotional impulses.

On my end, it's not frustration with you or anything you've said, so much as confusion about what kind of home you want. I'm just trying to understand what homes you've looked at that looked so miserable and unhealthy.

It's certainly true, as everyone on here has stated, that homes cost more here than a comparable home would in Atlanta or most other U.S. metropolitan areas. But I took a look at a couple of real estate sites and saw a number of homes that looked nice, while not opulent, for well under $600K (and in some cases well under $500K) in some of the higher-end towns around here.

No prison windows or ceilings men would rub their heads against. I'm 6'3" and I can't recall being in any house in New England built after about 1800 in which I've been at risk to bump my head. I can't speak to the plumbing, but a lot of the older houses here are made with considerably better construction materials than the big new ones in Atlanta.

Interestingly enough, while New England wealth has a tendency not to flaunt it, I think the Boston area is one of the few places in America that really does have a strong sense of class. In the old days, the class difference was often accompanied by a difference in ethnicity, religion, and immigration status. The 19th century Brahmins may not have been "tacky" about wealth, but they managed to make clear who had wealth and power around here, and significant resentments were created.

To this day, there is (if not outright resentment) an awareness of "class" differences. You can see it in the pages of the Boston Herald, or the historic conception of the east and west sides of South Boston, or South Boston v. Boston proper, or some attitudes in Waltham about Newton or Lexington, or the Winchester-Woburn football rivalry. Historically, these issues were at the forefront and played a big role in the development of insular working-class enclaves and local political alliances. In that respect, as in many others, Boston occupies the ground between Europe and the "rest of America."

[syracusa]

holden125,

What really confused us was to see a house close to what you described, nice but far from elegant (around 500,000, higher-end town) and then see some 1000 times worse looking at the same price. Husband says that those owners must be delusional to think they could sell their place at that price when there is a much nicer house at the same price nearby. Or again, maybe something wrong with the nicer looking house? We are not sure yet.

As for what you said on class differences in Boston, I very much anticipate this, I think it has many similarities with Europe, overall.

Having lived under two fundamentally different socio-economic systems [REAL socialism (not Obama socialism ) and capitalism], and on two fundamentally different continents (Old World and New World) it is downright fascinating for me to see how class distinctions play out and acquire different meanings under each system. I don't think there is any European who does not have a very deep awareness (be it subconscious) of the power of class divisions, whether they lived in the west or in the socialist/communist Eastern block.

So I can definitely understand what is happening in New Englad.

When my husband suggested that perhaps we would have been better off in a really cosmopolitan and open place like DC (not that we have any choice right now), I said a definite no. Had I had a choice, I would still have chosen Boston.

If the Boston area is the only urban center in America where you can still meet "locals" with a sense of roots, with extended families nearby, and even the cozy experience of a lifelong, stable "local clique", I would like to live there. Not in order for us to try to infiltrate ourselves into one of those local cliques, but because, in my experience, such places acquire a certain spirit and a degree of "human-ness" hard to find in rootless and cosmopolitan places like DC, where gregarious but fleeting strangers never get to infuse the place with a sense of belonging. Overly cosmopolitan places give me the sensation of living in an eternal summer camp, where things will always be temporary.

We hope to be able to visit Boston in a few weeks and I look forward to it.