Confused about the million dollar+ houses and the supposed "upper-middle" class factor associated with it (health insurance, salaries)

[brightdoglover]

Hmm. I still think that one can live well in the Boston area on the 6-figure+ income mentioned (and absolutely differ that Arlington and Belmont are "crap.")
I must admit I don't think of a 4-bedroom, 3.5 bath house as "decent," even for the supposed average family of four. That's honkin' HUGE. So maybe I don't understand the definitions of "decent/good/bad."
Again, I think the OP could live well here, if not in luxury.
Best wishes.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by brightdoglover

Hmm. I still think that one can live well in the Boston area on the 6-figure+ income mentioned (and absolutely differ that Arlington and Belmont are "crap.")
I must admit I don't think of a 4-bedroom, 3.5 bath house as "decent," even for the supposed average family of four. That's honkin' HUGE. So maybe I don't understand the definitions of "decent/good/bad."
Again, I think the OP could live well here, if not in luxury.
Best wishes.

I don't think that 4 bedrooms (if some are small) spells luxury for a 4 persons family, especially when at least one of the parents works from home and needs a tiny place for an office.
3.5 bathrooms borders indeed on "unnecessary", but I'm frankly puzzled when I see so many houses in MA with 3-4, even 5 bedrooms, and only ONE bath!

Parents, kids, visiting relatives...all sharing one bath?? Ouch.

I grew up under communism and the darn opressors were still building 2 baths per 1 modest family condo (with the specification that ALL families BETTER be modest ).

[DreamingSpires]

Syracusa,

It's important to many people to live in places like Newton, hence the high cost of living there. It seems to be important to you to live in an upper-class neighborhood, not mainly for the "prestige" factor, but more for the "intangibles." I'm not criticizing you for having this aspiration, merely pointing out to you that there are "other options."

In regard to my kids' future -- I placed the term "secure and prestigious" in quotes because I was being ironic. I don't really care about that cr*p and I don't think my kids do either. I would often ask them: "What did St. Augustine say?" Answer: "We have not here a lasting city." My criticism of the "status quo" is implicit in everything I wrote when read as a whole. And if it wasn't -- well, you will have to wait for my book

Adversity can hit anyone, at any time. Tenured public school teachers, highly-ranked union officials, professional athletes with multimillion dollar contracts, and doctors who work for the NHS are a few examples of people in a very, very small minority who are far more insulated from "economic hardship" than all the rest of us.... unless adversity hits, my kids, because of hard work and luck, will be in a category like that. That was all I meant. And if adversity does hit, I believe they will cope okay with it because of what they watched their parents go through, and by the values we instilled in them (being "beautiful in the eyes of God" is the only thing that matters -- NOT being "beautiful in the eyes of the world/mainstream society.")

You seem like a thoughtful person who cares a great deal about your kids. I urge you to look internally for your values rather than externally and to think about what really matters, not what you are told should matter. Doing this is a very difficult journey but it can be done.

Best of luck to you.

[LeavingMA]

Originally Posted by syracusa

<For the record, $500K will still buy a nice, roomy house in safe, quiet outer southwest 'burbs like Norfolk and Franklin that have good (not great, but quite good) public schools. If you work downtown, your commute would almost have to be by train, but commuting to spots on 128 via car is doable from these places>

Professorsenator,

Would you mind if I kindly asked you to capture, in just a few words, what might be the difference between "great schools" (such as the ones in Newton) and "good/decent" schools?

What does it mean "decent" nowadays in MA? Thanks a lot, I am trying to get a better idea beyond official ranking systems...(since this thread just won't die).

I would say the biggest difference in so-called "great" and "good" schools a lot of the time is just speculation and myths. Many times "great" schools are just the ones in wealthy towns where their kids will always go and get into college and make their school's statistics look good.

I'm not trying to say that wealthy towns have bad school systems, but they have used this argument on private schools also. I've seen many parents send their kids to private schools thinking they would be immune to drug problems and get a better education. Many times those parents are just being naive.

[clevedark]

I've talked with some Russian mothers at our public school in Brookline and they tend to agree that life in general is easier and more luxurious, and more supportive socially, there than it is here.

This country can give enormous financial rewards to the lucky few who succeed in business, but for the rest of us, yikes! I still can't believe that my friend with an undergraduate degree from Yale and a PhD from Princeton, as well as a tenure track position at a well respected university only makes about 60 grand a year.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Syracusa,

It's important to many people to live in places like Newton, hence the high cost of living there. It seems to be important to you to live in an upper-class neighborhood, not mainly for the "prestige" factor, but more for the "intangibles." I'm not criticizing you for having this aspiration, merely pointing out to you that there are "other options."

In regard to my kids' future -- I placed the term "secure and prestigious" in quotes because I was being ironic. I don't really care about that cr*p and I don't think my kids do either. I would often ask them: "What did St. Augustine say?" Answer: "We have not here a lasting city." My criticism of the "status quo" is implicit in everything I wrote when read as a whole. And if it wasn't -- well, you will have to wait for my book

Adversity can hit anyone, at any time. Tenured public school teachers, highly-ranked union officials, professional athletes with multimillion dollar contracts, and doctors who work for the NHS are a few examples of people in a very, very small minority who are far more insulated from "economic hardship" than all the rest of us.... unless adversity hits, my kids, because of hard work and luck, will be in a category like that. That was all I meant. And if adversity does hit, I believe they will cope okay with it because of what they watched their parents go through, and by the values we instilled in them (being "beautiful in the eyes of God" is the only thing that matters -- NOT being "beautiful in the eyes of the world/mainstream society.")

You seem like a thoughtful person who cares a great deal about your kids. I urge you to look internally for your values rather than externally and to think about what really matters, not what you are told should matter. Doing this is a very difficult journey but it can be done.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you, DreamingSpires, I appreciate your kind words and clarifications, and I could not agree more. I certainly understand what you meant by teaching your kids to be "beautiful in the eyes of God", this is exactly what I have been trying to do from day 1 (and I am not even a regular church goer ).

It would be hard for me to explain how little I actually care about "looking beautiful in the eyes of mainstream contemporary society", though I can see how some people might misconstrue my arguments and think that I care about it quite a lot.

I can assure you I would leave this "mainstream society" and its values completely alone if only IT left ME alone. I would, if I could function completely outside of it. I will confess I spent a few nights thinking how I could pull of such a move, as in completely "dropping out". For the sake of the kids, no more, no less.

Hence my frustrations and occasional solipsistic moments.

But when all is said and done, sure, we must deal with what is and make some choices within our limitations.

I would love to read your book.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by clevedark

This country can give enormous financial rewards to the lucky few who succeed in business, but for the rest of us, yikes!

This is where I was trying to get with my title.
I just got p***ed off when I kept reading phrases along the lines of "professionals/middle-upper class folks live there".
It almost sounded as if it all boils down to achievement, that grand middle-class value that keeps most of us on our toes, always on the treadmill, until we finally find our peace in a grave, with a big "so what?" engraved on our stones.

Your friend is obviously quite an accomplished person and on that salary, she obviously could not even begin to dream about those "professional/upper-middle class" neighborhoods with "the best schools", the best "intangibles" and the best "jazz".

So I was just going to propose we call it a spade, the spade being "reserved for the lucky few", instead of "professional/upper-middle class areas". Just to avoid any confusion.

I also wanted to add that I remain aware as ever that sometimes, you really can end up better off in a neighborhood with a regular, non-privileged population. The self-educated and the Down-to-Earth can be incredible breaths of fresh air.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by clevedark

I've talked with some Russian mothers at our public school in Brookline and they tend to agree that life in general is easier and more luxurious, and more supportive socially, there than it is here.

There...where? In Russia?

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by LeavingMA

I would say the biggest difference in so-called "great" and "good" schools a lot of the time is just speculation and myths. Many times "great" schools are just the ones in wealthy towns where their kids will always go and get into college and make their school's statistics look good.

I'm not trying to say that wealthy towns have bad school systems, but they have used this argument on private schools also. I've seen many parents send their kids to private schools thinking they would be immune to drug problems and get a better education. Many times those parents are just being naive.

What you say is probably true, for the most part; but as with everything else, it is not just one single factor.

The reality remains that the privileged have more resources: material, cultural, time. These will have a direct impact on the schools they send their kids to; not so much for the actual material endowments of the school, but for the "human resources" in them.

Many of the kids coming from privileged families have a highly available mother at home bent on staying on top of the kids' upbringing and education; to say nothing of tutors, opportunities for personal growth, cultural environments, etc. These things, in and of themselves, will increase the academic level of the school in question. It's just the way it is.

We sometimes seem to forget that non-privileged schools simply have kids with non-privileged parents; this usually means two working parents, always busy, tired, and pulled in 100 different directions every day, with much less time in their hands to dedicate to the child's character formation and education. Many brilliant kids from such families can under-achieve or veer off the track simply because parents do not have the time or the resources to stay "on top of them" and guide them consistently.

I sincerely believe this is the main reason why many middle class parents fight tooth and nail to get their kids into one of those "best" schools. It seems too simplistic to me to boil it down to mere vanity or snobbery.

While I am not excluding that true snob cases do exist, I do think that many middle class parents simply hope that by placing the child in an excellent academic/social environment such as the kind the privileged are able to create, he/she will be encouraged to keep up and do well too.

I may be wrong, but these would be my motivations - if any.

[DreamingSpires]

Syracusa,

Although I don't think you would be happy in the lower-middle enclave where I live, based on what you have written, I think you and your family would be very happy in a "middle-middle class" type neighborhood/suburb in Boston and that your "Newton or Nothing!" thinking is really misguided.

There is a thread at the top of the forum about "Moving to Boston from Chicago." The OP describes his/her current neighborhood as follows:

Although the commercial area stinks, it's a quick drive to other neighborhoods with better restaurants. The demographics are a virtual melting pot, skilled white collar and blue: 1 neighbor grew up a block away, his 90+ mother still lives there, another is a Taiwanese immigrant, some traders, skilled high-tech, Polish construction (it's a Chicago thing), a few Mexicans, traditionally German & Irish, yuppy young families refugees from the lake front scene, some glbt couples, buying up as the old timers pass on. The housing stock is single family with the occasional 3 flat or converted over-sized Victorian. No high-rises. Easy street parking.

It is very safe with low crime. I feel safe when alone. It helps that the police district is 1 mile away!

Our 1600 sq ft, 1895 house, with basement, small fenced yard (dog can go out with no worries or hassles), 2 car garage fits our needs. It has a wonderful modern kitchen (we both cook); admittedly it's a Frigidaire not a Subzero or Wolf. Updated 2 bathrooms, 2 bedrooms w/loft, oak floors on ground floor. A lot of storage. Cedar closets (I'll miss that!). And as stated up thread, forced air/ac hvac.

Train/subway is less than a 10 minute walk from the house. Expressway ramps is a 5 minute drive (and we can't hear or see it from the house).


Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/massachusetts/748653-moving-boston-chicago-help.html#ixzz0RTxxpNW4

Now, apart from the commercial deficits in the immediate area, doesn't that sound like a wonderful place?

Although they are describing a place in Chicago, similar places must exist in Boston. I don't know the Boston area, but in Hartford, I would point to places like Wallingford or Newington, or maybe West Hartford. If you want to "take it up a notch" you could look for some place like Glastonbury. These are all good places, but they don't require the salary of an investment banker to live there!


There is no reason why your children cannot thrive in "good" to "above-average" public schools. In fact, I would argue that by insisting that they attend only the "very best" public schools, you may actually be putting them at risk by exposing them to a "pressure cooker" environment that could actually backfire! Think about it...

My kids went to a comprehensive school (UK) that was somewhere in the "middle range" of the league tables. If I had rejected the school because it wasn't at the top of the league tables, and insisted instead on pushing them into Harrow or Eton, they would never have gotten the excellent education that they did -- in addition to having good and caring teachers, they made many nice friends and got to participate in extra programs such as music, outdoor activities, chess club, etc. I can assure you that many parents' at "average" schools care just as much about their children's education as parents in the "top" schools do. And I will let you in on a secret: once you have them in an "average or above average school" (and I include the "top schools" in this subset), the key to whether they will thrive is not the reputation of the school--it is the home environment. If in your home learning is valued, children are valued, and reading books is a normal activity, they will thrive.

It is true that in a "normal middle class" neighborhood--where your neighbors will probably be everything ranging from accountants and high-school teachers to small business owners and pipefitters or plumbers--you probably won't find a whole lot of PhDs....but really, "who cares?" With the abundance of professional associations open to academics in the Boston area and the wonders of the internet, do you really need to discuss intellectual topics with your neighbors?

Moreover, do you really want to be "quizzed" by people in million-dollar homes who are "sizing you up" and "evaluating" you--and your family--based on where you work, whether you have an advanced degree, and whether that advanced degree is from the "right school?"

You have expressed a desire to be surrounded by people like yourself with similar backgrounds and experiences, but by focusing myopically on certain demographics, and rejecting Boston because you cannot now afford the "swankiest" areas, I think you are limiting yourself in a very unwise way. I understand this impulse, but maybe instead of asking whether the people have the same educational level as you do, you should be asking, "are these good people that live here? Are they kind?"

Just a few things to think about!