About to fall in love, but...

[holden125]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Europeans often prefer to step out after work and just be "in the street" - strolling, hanging out at cafes, people watching, window shopping and yes, often showing off their "oh, so refined" fashions, a thing my Italian aunt turned into an art form .


But I remember reading how he couldn't get over this sense that everyone seems to "turn themselves off" after work hours and just vanish into some private, hidden, secretive nest - leaving all public spaces virtually irrelevant.

It is interesting how public spaces work better in some places than others. In the (pretty significant) time I've spent in Europe, I liked to stroll the streets and linger in cafes a lot more than I tend to do here. Even in Boston. Boston and the non-overwhelmingly-loud parts of New York are among the best places to stroll and linger in public spaces in the U.S., but it's still close but no cigar. One aspect is that so much of Europe has longer daylight in the summer, so you can be out at 10 PM and it's just becoming dark. But I think it's primarily a function of (1) a more enticing physical layout (more attractive, more pedestrian zones, etc.) and (2) people who use the public spaces, making them more interesting and safer, and thus more attractive to even more people. People beget people in public spaces.

Of course, you're more likely to stop in a public space if you're on foot rather than whizzing by at 50 MPH, so the fact that more Europeans live in cities or villages, and/or use mass transit that requires them to be in the street at some point, leads to them using the spaces that are there.

Originally Posted by syracusa

I agree that NOT all people on continental Europe are fond of city life, but those who are NOT fond of "big city" life are usually fond of some small town or village type of life, which is still very communal, by British-American standards. It would be safe to say that few continental Europeans fancy the true "Thoreau" lifestyle.

Good point. There are some places in rural America that have a sort of close-knit small town or village life, but values tend much more to the individualistic. I have to say I myself chafe at the idea of gossip and judgment, and I think I'd find the "village" atmosphere at least as stifling as nourishing. A little hint of the libertarian American comes out-one aspect of New England life is that people tend to mind their own business.

There are people in the Concord area who like living in the same place Thoreau lived, though I'm not sure they really want the "Thoreau" lifestyle (roughing it, nature) itself. More likely, people have the other attitude you pointed out: "Leave me alone, I'm home for the night." Or just "I can get a big house that doesn't feel cramped, and good schools and services here, and it's pretty."

Originally Posted by syracusa

That being said I LOVE the city of Boston and its immediate, walkable small towns. The best I have seen in the US so far. In addition, I think the regional mentalities would feel kinder to our overall makeup (which includes Southern husband): conservative in living but towards the left at the polls.

I say that's a deal for now.

Yes. I've often said that New England is progressive in many of the ways I am, but conservative in the ways I am as well.

[ffblue]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Thanks, Bostoner. Now...to be fair...we drove last evening through Carlisle - and it was the first time since we arrived in the Boston area that I got to NOT LIKE something. Immediately I got that "Atlanta" feeling: houses in the boonies, no sidewalks, sentiment of isolation and an "I do not care about anything or anybody but to stay in and watch TV" vibe.

Nice thread you have going here... Living in Carlisle I might point out a couple of differences. Unlike other areas of the country, towns in MA are pretty self contained, so instead of thinking about suburbs with large county systems of services - here the town does its own fire, police, schools, taxation, roads etc. Town meeting form of government further enforces this small town rather than suburban feeling. Carlisle is NOT for everyone. The town paper is named the "mosquito" for a reason. There are a lot of engineer types who want room to build the boat in the backyard etc. People who think of it as a bedroom community often find it lonely. People who join the work crews maintaining trails on the weekends, join the volunteer fire department, join in with the literally hundreds of parents working in the schools, volunteer in the town government, work for the non profit community newspaper etc find a sense of community.

This is probably true anywhere you look (you need to become involved to feel part of the community) but is especially true in a place like Carlisle. Carlisle has high taxes and almost no services. The people who live here for the most part like it. The people who don't want that environment for the most part live elsewhere.

As for schools - I'd look for things like parental envolvement and satisfaction. The published rankings may not be as informative as you might think. As an example - a school system where more students are taking AP classes will rank higher. Talk to a highschool teacher and they will tell you that AP classes are cramming for tests, and honors classes are much better for teaching/learning.

This is a nice area to live in, and I am glad you are finding that. As you mention, the combination of not telling others how to live (liberal) but choosing conservative choices for oneself is a nice combination. I have lived in a number of other places in the country - my gripe about this area is cost of living. It is shockingly high here, and can preclude lifestyle options (single income, less stressful work, ability to coast between jobs...)

Good luck on your move.

[professorsenator]

Originally Posted by holden125

There are people in the Concord area who like living in the same place Thoreau lived, though I'm not sure they really want the "Thoreau" lifestyle (roughing it, nature) itself...

I think the New England desire to be in the "boonies" (i.e. live on a relatively large parcel of land ) is directly related to the strong connection that many New Englanders feel to the settler history of the region and a sentimentality toward agrarianism (hence, the popular farm stands, etc. found in the outer 'burbs). To these factors one can add a very healthy dose of contemporary environmentalism that prizes nature for nature's sake and is very sensitive to human impact upon the ecology. In this way, New England is extremely conservative.

Indeed, many communities fight like mad to resist development of all sorts to maintain a bucolic atmosphere and traditionalistic feel, and in the interest of environmental preservation. Therefore, the rural mindset is often a very enlightened and intellectual one here (it is not nearly as "hillbilly" or "redneck" as it is in some regions of the country, though there are some rural areas in New England that bear more than a passing resemblance to Alabama!). In fact, some of the most desirable and expensive communities in the Boston 'burbs are quite rural feeling

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by professorsenator

Indeed, many communities fight like mad to resist development of all sorts to maintain a bucolic atmosphere and traditionalistic feel, and in the interest of environmental preservation. Therefore, the rural mindset is often a very enlightened and intellectual one here (it is not nearly as "hillbilly" or "redneck" as it is in some regions of the country, though there are some rural areas in New England that bear more than a passing resemblance to Alabama!). In fact, some of the most desirable and expensive communities in the Boston 'burbs are quite rural feeling

The comparison is so interesting and definitely what we are discovering here. And I am trying to decide whether I like this or not, namely that there IS no actual suburb in MA to make the connection between urban and completely undeveloped rural.

In the Boston area, it almost seems as if you must choose between urban setting (in Atlanta a place like Wakefield would pass as urban) and completely rural/un-developed (which there are plenty in GA but no equivalent in Europe, at least not on continental Europe).

We saw a few apartments in Belmont, but it is so weird how 11 years in Atlanta spoil you real-estate wise, even when you grew up in tight, urban spaces of an European capital. You can't quite make yourself live in a crammed, small space anymore just to be in the middle of an otherwise great and lively place. This is clearly how America gets immigrants addicted.

So we went to North Andover to see a quite large and nice house that would give us way more living space than what we had in our Atlanta townhouse. Everything looked wonderful except that, darn it, now I felt uncomofortable about the rural feeling surrounding the house, be it in an apparently very nice neighborhood! I wonder if I can win - probably not.

The suburbs in Atlanta have "urban pretentions", are very developed, measured and planned out perfectly. They certainly look closer to "civilization" even if they are not, and are very, very dry. Landscape is all planned to a T and picture perfect, many communities are gated or semi-gated, and there is no sense of "wilderness" except that when you are out there, you realize there's nothing to do except hop in your car and drive to some remote strip mall with an Applebees restaurant or the like.
But then again, what do you do in a remote rural area in New England?

In addition, there's no sentimentality to the Atlanta area, people come and go taking large, new, modern living spaces for granted and expecting to move into an even bigger, edgier and sparklier house in a few years.
Unlike New England where I definitely sensed a bit of sentimentality, be it for a way of living I would never be able to really appreciate (the "boony" life). But sentimentality is good in my book, it humanizes people, so I guess it doesn't matter what it is for. But hey, the rural South has its own kind of sentimentality - how about the Confederate flag?

As for the truly educated bunch in Atlanta as compared to New England, they clearly prefer the urban (or as little as Atlanta can offer in the way of urbanity), all while making sure to stay clustered in exclusive residential neighborhoods that seem thousands of miles away from the urban disaster and gloom nearby.

Speaking of "champaign taste on a beer budget", the case of a professor in Atlanta comes to mind, who insisted on buying a place in one of these "IT" residential neighborhoods within the urban perimeter, where - he said - "people like himself lived" (professors, doctors, etc). Yes, he got the "snob" grief in spades and then some, but he never flinched.
It turned out sometimes snobbery works wonders. :-)

At that time, he had just started out his career with a salary in the low 40's and a stay-at-home wife, so all he could afford in that neighborhood was a horrible, bug-infested structure, which he ended up buying anyway.

Last I heard about him, he fixed it well over the years and sold it at a 500,000$ profit , obviously at the right time. Now he is a chair in the Philadelphia area living again in a very upscale neighborhood with his two small children and a wife that continues to stay at home (somehow).

I would use this story as an inspiration for how to buy a house in Newton, but my husband is anything but the "handy man" type.