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A lot of homes in Mass. have relatively low ceilings. Most stuff built during the 20th century up until the late 1970's/early 1980's had low ceilings because it is more advantageous from a heating perspective. Countless suburban ranches and splits have 7/7.5 foot ceilings. A lot of old houses (i.e. <20th century) had low ceilings, too, but some had high ceilings.
In the south higher ceilings are MUCH more common for the same heating reason (though in reverse, of course). Low ceilings help people keep warm (good in Boston), high ceilings help 'em stay cool (good in Atlanta).
This is a another regional difference in housing that many transplants find startling since today the preference is for higher ceilings. People from the South see houses here and the homes are not only generally smaller in terms of square feet, but they feel more claustrophobic becasue the ceilings are often lower. Add a price tage that this is jaw dropping, and you can start to get a picture of the reaction many folks have...
As is true of many people, you are a paradox, syracusa. If I recall correctly, your policy preference is for population control and your two kids are too much for you, not for me. Though of course you love them very much now that they're here! It is true, however, that people in MA tend to have fewer kids these days because it's so expensive here, and there are so many professional women whose time is already stretched thin. Parents couldn't handle 7 or 8 the way the big Irish families did it in the 50's.
You're also a paradox in that you've stated that you HATE the MA woods (really, on the basis of about 5 hours total in them), and you claim to hate them because you hated the GA woods. Now, your townhouse in GA is in a "secluded, private corner with a view to kill for." A week ago you "voted left" but now you're open to Glenn Beck because Mass. has high home prices? There's proof the move is making you insane!
You made me laugh. I certainly am a paradox because I never believed in black and white anything. Add to the mix the international background, and you'll get an ideological mess. Life itself is all paradox and nuance. Yes, I have two kids, both carefully planned, but I am also for population control, if only this would be doable at the policy level. It's safe enough to say that if the entire Globe were to stop where we stopped (2 kids), it would still not be too bad of a deal. I know for sure we reached the bottom of our ration, children wise.
Let alone that, like you said, many opt for a childless lifestyle nowadays, which, as un-fulfilling as I personally find it, it suits many people just fine and it also benefits those of us who want one or two of those life-suckers anyway . There are too many of us on this darn Earth, the cut-throat competition helps no one but those at the very top, and if we are to go to H in a hand basket, it will be via reproductive ways for sure.
Yes, I hate living in the woods, far from any sign of civilization ANYWHERE, having to drive your patience away just to get to anything man-made.
I like man-made, especially if it's well-made.
I may like to take a trip to the woods once in a while, for fresh air and the like, but never in my ideal world would I CHOOSE to live there. Our townhouse in GA is, in fact, in the middle of a very urban-to-suburban, highly walkable area. But the very spot in which it is positioned is quite incredible. There is a main street where EVERYTHING is, and our house is on a U turn street off of that main road. By the time you drive 1 minute or so to the bottom of the U, or walk 5-7 minutes, you get to the townhouse placed in a very quiet spot, with lots of trees (and kadzoo!) in background, a little creek, bucolic view but also beautifully landscaped - 1 minute drive to just about everything. 5-15 minutes to the best culture and shopping Atlanta was able to come up with. There is no noise where the townhouse is, none of the disadvantages that you might get if the house is literally placed among commercial buildings or on main roads. I am yet to see a better location than what we had here. I guess we were luckier than we thought and we got really spoiled in this location.
Yes, I voted left (only one time, as I only recently received the right to vote in this country). However, I know that just because I voted left, I am not a die-hard American far leftist. In fact, in real life, I've had a relatively hard time "clicking" with this type of people here in the US. As for California-type far left wing, those scare me almost as much as Glenn Back does.
I sincerely believe that America is too polarized and people tend to gravitate towards the extremes of the political continuum, driven by beloved and rigid ideology, often eskewing flexibility in thinking, common sense, reasonable-ness and time-tested truths.
In Europe, I am probably closer to "conservatism" than anything else. Over there, chances are I would be a monarchist. In the US, I am drastically far away from so-called "conservatism", better named "right-wing"; though I DO understand a few of their pains and complaints.
At the end of the day, European and American conservatives are trying to "conserve" very different mentalities and ways of life.
So maybe the appropriate label for me would be independent. I like to read all sorts of arguments, from left and right, and all other corners available, including those coming from non-American sources. Then I like to filter them through my own brain. I vote based on what I think is highly necessary and urgent at any given point in time, given the culture in question, all against the Global backdrop.
As for Glenn Beck, I was just joking. While I have always kept a courtesy open ear for American right-wing arguments, I see the likes of Glenn Back as a major danger to reasonable, civilized conversation. We should not forget though that when people become overly frustrated, bitter, and squeezed between a rock and a hard spot, they are more likely to fall for such radical rants and act upon them.
Again, I think the development laws in MA are needlessly harsh, especially when MA continues to receive transplants for economic reasons.
You'll be fine where you are. Like I said and as you will read below when you get a minute, you are near SO MUCH more than me where I live!
You have no idea what being in the woods is like where you are, compared to where I am! You are really SO SO lucky you're only about 25 minutes from downtown Boston where you live, that's a dream to me! I'm telling you, try living further up the coast from where you are! You think it's easy, do you?!!!!
Citygirl52,
Many thanks for the ton of incredibly useful information you helped us with, I really appreciate it. One thing I am clearly discovering (both based on the week we spent in MA and what I found on the MA boards) is that the "Massh**le" topic is a complete aberration. One thing I will surely be able to live without by moving up there is the chirpy, smiling-in-the-street customs.
We will look up everything you suggested, but if this is any consolation to you (I do feel your pain about living in even "woodier woods" than what I described ), this house is not really close to main, developed North Andover. It is much more South, in a very remote spot closer to Lawrence, Andover and Boxford rather than to North Andover itself. It nevertheless has a North Andover address. Thanks again for your very helpful post!
No problem Syracusa. With the scoops like this, you'll be telling every one else where to go soon enough!
You know, I forgot to tell you this, but actually you can even get to the North Shore Mall AND even the Liberty Tree Mall in Peabody in no time from where you're situated in No. Andover. You just have to shoot down I-95 and get off at the Rte 1 Peabody exit in Danvers to get there, it's the Rte 114 Peabody exit off of the old Rte 1 that you want. Follow it straight all the way past that Grassfields and Burlington Coat Factory that I told you about and go straight all the way past PETCO. See, that PETCO is where you take a left for the Liberty Tree mall, BUT you go straight on this 114 for the North Shore Mall in Peabody. It might work out for you going there too, I even go to this Mall from NH because like I said, it's a Simon Mall and they're SO much cooler, this corporation knows what we want for stores:
While of course it's not the Mall of America nor the giant never ending mall I went to in Virginia/DC a few years ago, the Northshore Mall is a proud example of a high quality mall with a large selection of moderate to slightly upscale stores. There's not a lot of "filler" here, by that I mean, all the no name and trashy stores you typically have to skip over that you find in the little malls like Liberty Tree in Peabody, which by the way has a Nordstrom's Rack that is really good now AND an Off Broadway shoe store as well as a Bed Bath & Beyond too these days there, that my sisters and I frequent quite a bit! Despite the fact that there may be some gems within both of these Malls, the Liberty Tree Mall AND the North Shore Mall have evolved themselves time and time again, and they're moving up another notch yet again with these newer, funkier stores, trust me! The North Shore Mall even has a recently built Cheesecake Factory addition and Nordstrom that is open now finally! I've seen this mall grow from a Pretzel Time, 5-7-9, Friendly's mall to a Pottery Barn, Williams Sonoma, Coach, Nordstrom mall. All they need now is a Sephora and they'll be close to perfect for me!
You know, it actually might even be a closer drive for you than going to Salem's Mall some times. Even though there's tax free shopping with that one in NH! Some times during the holiday season I will time it and shoot down to the North Shore Mall early in the morning and I'm always able to get a parking spot then. That's one thing that will drive you crazy during the holidays here. The parking lots in ALL the Mall are packed and I mean packed. So do what I do, just time it, go really early in the morning when they first open or even go later on at night, some times I do that and it works out. Forget during the day, it's too wild, then it dies down after the holidays and you can usually find a spot.
OH if you really have a hard time at the NS Mall finding a spot. Look for the Restoration Hardware store from the outside of the Mall as you're driving thru looking for a spot. Parking thru there is usually good for some reason. I always manage to luck out at that Mall right outside from that store, so remember that. You can walk thru that store from the outside and get to the "good" stores we all like from there. I've done that quite a few times and it worked out. Just so you won't get a headache with the parking situation at that particular Mall in Peabody, it can get SO annoying!
There's even a newer PF Chang's China Bistro that is just wonderful! I just recently found out that they're all over the country, do you believe it! I always thought PF Chang's started in Boston in Park Square! Boy was I wrong about that one, I went online one time to their site when we were making reservations and discovered ALL their many locations around the country!
I sympathize completely with how hard it is to find affordable housing around here. But it gets that much harder when you not only have a budget, you want (1) at least 3-4 bedrooms; (2) reasonably close to Reading; (3) in a fairly developed place and not in the woods; (4) not old, small, or run-down; (5) a very good school district; (6) high ceilings.
I wish we had not wasted an entire week looking for 4 bedrooms, when we could have looked for 3 BR and any extra bonus room with a door, whether that's finished basement or any room that could take in a bed and an office desk. We do need an extra room because we often have family visiting for longer periods of time and I work from home a lot. But family surely doesn't need to stay in an OFFICIAL bedroom. As long as there is a door to close for minimum of privacy (a concept my culture considers highly over-rated anyway ), that should be great,
We modified the search but now we have to do it from a distance.
The woods are a lovely place to walk in, I firmly believe that you will come to discover this. A walk on a snowy path with your spouse is something that I hope you try at least once.
There is a certain quality of life that I think you will discover, once you are away from the Wal-marts and vast McMansions homes of Atlanta. It is good for kids to get a little bored and seek their own entertainment. My mother used to kick me outside and tell me to not come in until called for lunch.
I sense that you are feeling nervous about your impending move and are seeing all the potential pitfalls and hazards. I know how you feel because I am often the same way about other things.
It will be OK. I promise!
Wise words from Thinking. I too have been getting the sense that some of your anxiety has to do with the general situation of having to move, and move to an area you're unfamiliar with. I have a feeling that you'll start seeing positives around you when you settle into the area, and that you will then have a good opportunity to get to know the area better, so you'll have a good feel for where to look when it comes time to buy.
I do realize that different people have different preferences. You definitely seem to prefer areas that have come to be described by the term "walkable." You mentioned in one post that the house you were looking at had a N. Andover address despite being out away from the main town of N. Andover. In case you do not settle once and for all on that house and keep looking in the area, one piece of info that could be useful is that the reason that area had a N. Andover address was that it must have been located in N. Andover.
There are no unincorporated areas in MA. All territory is located within the bounds of some city or town. This means that towns with low population densities will often include very low-density, even rural, territory within their boundaries, with the boundaries extending beyond any built up areas around the center of town. This is something to keep in mind when looking in this area. Just because an address has the name of a town, that does not necessarily mean that the property is located in a walkable neighborhood. It could be out in the country. This means that a property's location within a town, and the character of the neighborhood, may be something you would want to find out about before looking at any more properties.
one piece of info that could be useful is that the reason that area had a N. Andover address was that it must have been located in N. Andover.
There are no unincorporated areas in MA. All territory is located within the bounds of some city or town. This means that towns with low population densities will often include very low-density, even rural, territory within their boundaries, with the boundaries extending beyond any built up areas around the center of town.
This is true of basically every town in MA-the center is denser. Some towns, generally closer to Boston, are "filled in" completely. Others, like perhaps Carlisle, have a center you could completely miss if you blink. But there are plenty of towns that have a fairly dense and walkable center but are rural-seeming on the periphery, including North Andover. If you do move there and come to like the center of town, you might look at buying a home in the center in the future.
I have lived in Acton for 19 years and moved here for the school system. Originally from Natick (and still with family there who I visit), the commute is pretty straightforward on Route 27 and the back roads. It takes between 30 and 45 minutes. Now that our nest is empty, we're getting ready to move South! Our home is in a wooded area and abutting conservation land, yet is close to library (1.5 miles), schools (1.0 miles) and shopping (2 miles). It is what I like so much about Acton; you can still connect with nature but not feel isolated...
This was from another thread. I find Syracusa's anthropocentric views refreshing but I think this post indicates something about how lots of people think. Being "in a wooded area abutting conservation land" fulfills the desire to be connected to nature (or it seems to), but they also feel connected to civilization because it's close to the library, schools, etc. Close by car, that is, and I guess to a lot of us the car or the need of one doesn't seem like an isolating factor. To me, needing a car to get anywhere other than the woods seems impossible--very isolating. It's something of a mystery to me why people don't groan at the thought of having to get in and out of a car whenever they go somewhere but obviously most Americans have no problem with it at all.
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Though of course you love them very much now that they're here! It is true, however, that people in MA tend to have fewer kids these days because it's so expensive here, and there are so many professional women whose time is already stretched thin. Parents couldn't handle 7 or 8 the way the big Irish families did it in the 50's.
. There are too many of us on this darn Earth, the cut-throat competition helps no one but those at the very top, and if we are to go to H in a hand basket, it will be via reproductive ways for sure. 
), this house is not really close to main, developed North Andover. It is much more South, in a very remote spot closer to Lawrence, Andover and Boxford rather than to North Andover itself. It nevertheless has a North Andover address. Thanks again for your very helpful post!
N. Andover address out in the woods
