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A few additional comments on the responses since last I wrote:
* Crispo, njsocks, thanks for the compliments! Hopefully I will not need them, but I will definitely check my armor, as well as my fire-proof pants
* Some folks (mommytotwo, crazyworld) have reiterated the point that not everyone in Massachusetts is rude and that it's not really fair to generalize an entire population, and mommytwo has also pointed out how long things can take in the South due to idle chit-chat. Absolutely right on both counts; hopefully that came across in my previous post as well.
With that said, the problem then becomes the subsequent dismissal of the concerns being raised here. In particular:
IDEA #1: "It's not that people are rude, they are just making efficient use of their time, which may seem rude to those used to shooting the breeze". This probably contributes to the perception, but I have no time for that either, so that is not the issue with me, nor with everyone else here. There is a deeper issue here that relates to attitude; refer to the article I linked. This does not apply to all, and again, very unlikely that it applies to the folks posting here, but it does apply to more than it should.
IDEA #2: "This is just a cultural difference to accept / get used to." Having lived abroad for several years, I am fully familiar with how difficult such differences can make things and the need to adjust, and yes, various cultures have various ways of showing respect for each other. Again, this probably contributes to the perception, but we should not confuse differences in social education with a lack thereof. If a culture fails to provide some of its members the skills needed to interact with "outsiders", this is a serious disadvantage for them, especially given the increasing interconnectedness of the global economy and the chances that they will meet them where they live and / or move elsewhere. In short, this is bad for everyone. Massachusetts does not have a monopoly on this problem, but again, this is more common than it should be here, especially given the fact that folks here tend to be more well-educated and cultured - again, I expected more.
IDEA #3: "It's your fault for being slow, idle, and / or stupid". Yes, some folks really are that way, and I think we've all done our share of stupid things, but this is totally independent of where we're from. Assuming any outsider must be one of the three, on the other hand, is the kind of attitude that gives people such a bad impression in the first place (DOH!). Being able to be self-critical is one of the keys to success, and again, while still a minority, too many folks here are at a real disadvantage in that they seem to lack this ability.
As a quick aside, the real irony is how well those labels can be applied to public works projects in Massachusetts My tax dollars at "work", [sigh]
This might not be a politically correct observation but here goes...
Could there possibly be a connection between poor driving habits and people who can't speak/read English? Someone made this observation: Top 100 Cities with Highest Percentage of Foreign-Born Residents (pop. 5000+):
I do have a question... CAN you get a drivers license in Massachusetts if you do not speak/write/read English? I live in NH, and as far as I know, testing is in English only here. Inquiring minds want to know!!
As a person who lived in Florida since the 70's and just relocated to MA, I can tell you the bad drivers have nothing to do with where they come from. I lived for 15 years in Jacksonville, that has a small immigrant population compared to Miami, but the drivers are absolutely horrible! The biggest two problems are stated above by someone else...they don't even know they have a directional and they review the speed limit as a suggested speed. These drivers for the most part are white corporate america rushing to their jobs on Jacksonville's southside (I refer to office park land).
Many have stated in their posts that New Englander's don't engage in the fluffy conversations in exchage for efficiency. To some extent, this does make sense. If we, as Americans, stopped to chat for five minutes to every person we met we would never accomplish anything. However, I think Massachusetts could certainly use a bit more "hospitality" and friendliness. As stated earlier, one man said when he walks down the street, people avoid making eye contact. To me, this shows a lack of trust and disengagment of the community. In ultimate result, this is causing inefiiciency.
Lack of trust and connection is bad for business and the local economy. I would think a friendly person be more likely to be hired for a job given the rest were fixed qualifications.
It's funny because in the Southwest. Most of the friendly communities are the wealthy communities, (not to say the poor are not) you would think that Mass would be friendly too. I guess it's a cultural thing.
In a professional organization, you need to have customer service skills. Customer service is best handled by friendly people. This is why most of the big customer service call centers are down south.
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"It's your fault for being slow, idle, and / or stupid". Yes, some folks really are that way, and I think we've all done our share of stupid things, but this is totally independent of where we're from. Assuming any outsider must be one of the three, on the other hand, is the kind of attitude that gives people such a bad impression in the first place (DOH!).
It was a joke. Apparently you didn't get it.
The only time I have ever viewed "outsiders" (sounds like we are in science fiction film) as being slow, idle, or stupid is when I am put on the defensive as people like you tend to do.
However, sometimes when I am driving and someone in front of me makes a bad driving maneuver in order to not miss an exit ramp it is very often an "outsider" who does it.
Not all outsiders make these extremely rude and dangerous moves but too many of them do.
It's just that considering the fact that outsiders are kind and friendly, I expect more from them and I often find myself disappointed.
BTW, that article that you linked was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek.
I also have a question.
How does a culture prepare it's members with the skills needed to interact with outsiders. Do we here in MA need to implement a certificate program in the arts of etiquette, or shootin' the sh-t, or calling everyone "sugar"?
I feel I must reply to the original post about rudeness in Mass. As a former interstate truck driver I can see where someone might get that impression at first glance. From strictly a traffic perspective, Massachussetts drivers seem to always be in a hurry, often cutting in front of you on the expressways or following much too closely behind on secondary roads. Warehouse personnell are also rude, but that's pretty much everywhere. One thing being a truck driver made me realize is that when you are a stranger, people are less inclined to show you your best side, especially when they think they will never see you again anyway, as it is with truck drivers. I have also met and gotten to know many good people in Massachussetts in wharehouses that I visited frequently such as the BJ Wholesale distribution center in Franklin Ma. I also spent a summer on Nantucket and made very good friends in that short time there. So, I think it comes down to the very basic tribal nature of the human race.
Exactly - being an "outsider", I was probably too stupid Seriously, while I do appreciate humor, I've seen enough bad behavior to know that some folks take this sort of thing to heart. Absolutely no need to be on the defensive if you're not part of the problem.
As for driving, no idea where the drivers are from, but the vast majority of the aggressive maneuvers I see around here come from cars with MA plates, so I'm inclined to say that there's more to this than lost tourists. Drivers aside, the environment itself is quite hostile, and encourages the kinds of problems you mention. To give an example, I can recall coming back from Logan at night and counting three critical signs in the space of maybe five miles with untrimmed trees directly in front of them, totally obscuring the view. Given that it was my first time driving the route, without printed directions, an eye on my odometer and some intuition, I would've been lost several times over - and I'd lived in MA for several years! This, the identification of cross-streets but not the road one is on, the lack of any logical urban planning, the way some of the locals drive, etc., etc. guarantees that we all have to put up with more people causing traffic trouble, and for that matter, people from MA (who far outnumber "outsiders") are certainly not immune to being lost.
Your question is a good one! The best way I know is to travel enough that people stop looking like "outsiders" and start looking like just that - people. Not easy, not always possible for practical reasons, but encouraging folks to be open-minded and self-critical and discouraging tribalism would be a good start. Bare minimum? As the saying goes, do unto others...
Finally, just to reiterate what I've been trying to say up to now - I'm not attacking all things Massachusetts, or everyone who lives here. I live here, and I'm pointing out real issues, voiced and confirmed by numerous others, that I would like to think of as opportunities for improvement - improvement that would benefit everyone.
PS - I think I know people who took at least one of those certificate programs! Still, if it makes you feel any better, I hereby promise never to call you or anyone else in the state "sugar" (...drat, there goes half my day...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDot
It was a joke. Apparently you didn't get it.
The only time I have ever viewed "outsiders" (sounds like we are in science fiction film) as being slow, idle, or stupid is when I am put on the defensive as people like you tend to do.
However, sometimes when I am driving and someone in front of me makes a bad driving maneuver in order to not miss an exit ramp it is very often an "outsider" who does it.
Not all outsiders make these extremely rude and dangerous moves but too many of them do.
It's just that considering the fact that outsiders are kind and friendly, I expect more from them and I often find myself disappointed.
BTW, that article that you linked was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek.
I also have a question.
How does a culture prepare it's members with the skills needed to interact with outsiders. Do we here in MA need to implement a certificate program in the arts of etiquette, or shootin' the sh-t, or calling everyone "sugar"?
I've got to agree with "ontheroad", that many Mass. residents ARE unfriendly (my husband, from Ohio, can't stand them!), and yes, are some of the worst drivers in the world. But out here in W. Mass (I live near Amherst), people are MUCH friendlier. It could be because they come from all over to go to college, then love it so much they stay here. Or it's just the vibe, or more room.
Anyone who's lived through one of our winters is BOUND to be kind of ornery!
The worst area of Mass., in my opinion, is Central MA; it's like going back 50 yrs. in time and you feel like you're trapped in Stepford or the town in "To Kill a Mockingbird"! My belief is that they got cut off, culturally, when Quabbin Reservoir basically cut the state in half. The town of Barre is THE WORST!
As for Southerners or Midwesterners being so "friendly", maybe on the surface, but I don't care for the racism at ALL...or the political and religious intolerance. You don't see much of that here in Mass. My husband's home town (near Columbus) STILL won't allow Blacks to live there and the last lynching was in the early 1970's!!! So, I think they pick and chose those to whom they're so goldang "friendly", based on race and religion!
Maybe we Bay Staters are just ticked off at being ragged on because we're Liberal and mostly Democrat! Think about it...
Glad to hear things are better in Western MA! I've only been out there a couple of times, went out to Springfield and Amherst and did some hiking around there, beautiful area... In terms of attitude and driving, I think you're right, it's mostly proximity to Boston. Likewise, I know the South well, and I agree with you, there are some serious problems there also - depends on exactly where you are, Atlanta might as well be a northern city for instance, but racism is by no means dead in this country. Of course, one finds that out in the boonies in West Virginia, too, and plenty of other places as well... Unfortunately I don't think any place has totally stamped it out, but some are better than others. Didn't realize Central MA was like that, yikes! Where do you draw the lines, east of Amherst / west of Worcester?
As to the South, and believe me, I hear you, there are things I really miss but also many things I was happy to get away from. With that said, it is nevertheless true that people tend to be warmer and more welcoming there, (this is a matter of social education / learning good manners), and it's neither fair nor accurate to assume that this is just a mask for racist tendencies or intolerance. Yes, it can be misleading depending on what you're used to / expecting, but being raised to be polite is hardly a bad thing.
I think we're on the same page on a lot of things, but even so, just as I make a point not to assume that the next person I meet from MA represents the worst the area has to offer, it's important to treat the Southerners you meet with an open mind as well. A lot of people hear a Southern accent and make all sorts of assumptions about level of education, tolerance, etc., and that's no more fair than hearing a Boston accent and assuming the person is going to kill you when they get behind the wheel... Don't get me wrong, the midwestern thing of being polite to a fault and never being able to discuss anything even remotely controversial (i.e. important) as a result is seriously annoying, but that's for another post...
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Last edited by CaseyB; 09-10-2008 at 04:05 AM..
Reason: off topic
How ironic...My husband and I were born and raised in MA and then moved to NC 5 years ago (job related move). We have had a difficult time making friends down here to be honest. Southern hospitality is not all that it's cracked up to be. Part of what we've found is that the locals already have their friends and tend not to open up to outsiders, especially if you're from the northeast. I've encountered many rude southerners while being approached and welcomed by those who have moved here from somewhere else. I miss MA quite a bit, but there is good and bad wherever you go so I try to focus on the positive.
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My tax dollars at "work", [sigh]
From the outside looking in
Seriously, while I do appreciate humor, I've seen enough bad behavior to know that some folks take this sort of thing to heart. Absolutely no need to be on the defensive if you're not part of the problem.
