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Old 03-02-2010, 11:19 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
17,764 posts, read 40,031,713 times
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I think that at some point, she needs to evaluate her child and find out what his talents and skills truly are. Maybe a blue collar job fits in more with what he has for his skill set. But perhaps he has the intellectual talents to be an engineer or doctor. But she won't know for a while. Fun is all well and good after school hours, but my parents always told me that my "job" as a child was to do as well as I could in school. Otherwise, if I were a parent now, I would skip the sports activities like soccer, unless I could find a casual play situation. I'd just want my kid to do as well as possible in the basic academics, plus as a parent take him to places like constructions sites, airports, hospitals and farms... just to see what jobs might tickle his fancy. And I would also take him to the public library every week and let him take out any books that he wanted to. Every local museum would be visited also, and I would take him to my favorite childhood museums in NYC. For outdoor fun, I'd take him a hikes in the mountains, sledding when there's snow out, and make sure that he got swimming lessons. Eventually, I would introduce him to more obscure sports like cross country skiing and fencing. Just exposing him to all kinds of things. Well not Barney the dinosaur though. I can't stand that purple creature. Also, I would teach my child about personal finances, and to not spend beyond their means, and to not be unhappy if they can't live like a rich celebrity. No child of mine would seriously want to buy or lease some $90K unless they made enough money and it were fiscally responsible to do so. And no child of mine would be brainwashed by tv commercials to want every new toy or gadget.

Anyway, maybe I am also speaking from the viewpoint of an Asian, where developing self discipline is important, and having a filial duty to make my elders proud is just part of my culture, and I did just fine that way. My childhood was happy to me, and I am glad that my parents were firm with me. And it's still okay that my parents weren't "friends" with me, but adults to be respected and listened to. And I'm glad that I didn't go to a community college, but I also don't look down on blue collar workers. Several times in my life, I worked jobs in print shops and even a bike factory. Even now, I don't mind working a catering job as I get really cheap health insurance from working there. But what keeps my sanity is having a well developed mind that likes to think and observe. I am never bored. I've never been upset with not being wealthy, and I am a good problem solver and know how to live frugally. And part of being content with my life is knowing that by living within my means, I don't have to work like a crazy stressed out person.

And looking back at my years growing up in Concord, none of my friends were pushed by their parents to achieve. We wanted to. All my friends wanted to go to good colleges, so I had no delinquent acquaintances to lead me astray. And Concord also gave us a safe environment to be kids in. We had no street gangs or teen baby mommas. Sure, some of my friends must have been having teen sex or drinking, but it wasn't glorified by them or anyone else, and instead kept discrete... and I had no desire to do any of that stuff. That stuff didn't fit in with my idea of childhood and I was in no rush to do any adult activities.

A couple of my classmates went on to do extraordinary things, but most of us turned out to be average middle class adults. One friend is a computer programmer, another works in the Maine legislature, another is a mom who sometimes teaches aerobic ballet classes but works at a bank. Another is a shop foreman at an automotive garage specializing in imports. Most are homeowners. At the high school reunions that I've been to, everyone there seems happy enough with their lives.

I'd like to add that children should be showed a realistic picture of life. Not a scary one, but just to know that every personal choice they make does have a consequence. And that no one's life is perfect and full of rainbows. And that money doesn't buy happiness. And kids shouldn't been allowed instant gratification, having patience and planning towards a goal is a good thing and just the way life is. They should know that if they work extra hard on their homework, it will be rewarded with good grades, a better chance at entry into a good college, then onto a good career with all the benefits that come with it. But if they don't want to push themselves, then they shouldn't count on winning a lottery to buy them a house. Parents need to plant those seeds of thought into their kids during their childhood. They also need to teach their kids how to be adaptable in case Plan A doesn't pan out.

I feel that too many parents coddle and spoil their kids by giving them exactly the presents they request for their birthdays and christmases. Parents shouldn't be fighting over the hot toys in the toy stores before christmas or paying over retail for them on eBay just to please their kids. That's just plain stupid parenting.

 
Old 03-02-2010, 12:49 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,410,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
syracusa - What is your idea of success for your child? Is him going to a community college enough? I applaud your desire that he have a fun childhood, and of course, that's what he should have. But what's different for children today versus when I was a child growing up in Concord, MA is that it's so much harder to get into a decent college now. There's just so much more competition to get into the good schools, that the parents do need to plan ahead more. That's just what happens when the human population is higher everywhere in the world.

And even if you don't care where or if you son goes to college, the global job market is such, that he still needs to stand out as a young adult in some way in order to get a decent job. And I agree with the others, you don't have to push your child as hard as these other parents, but that there is some happy medium so that your son still has a great childhood, but turns into a young adult that is productive in a career he loves his whole life.

I must say that I'm glad to have been young when I was...
Miu,

Breachcomber already addressed it, and quite successfully - as she (he?) usually does - but let me add this: it seems to result from your post that in order to do well in today's competitive world kids have to begin reading and writing and doing all sorts of "sit-at-the-desk-and-drill" academics much earlier than we did. At a first glance, it makes sense. If A, B and C read and write fluently at 4, and yours has been playing outside all this time, it's only fair to assume those are going to end up with the "nice jobs" (and all the "nice stuff" associated with the nice job, right?) while yours will knock at various doors begging for unstable gigs.

I am yet to buy this one. I am yet to be convinced that such early beginings result in smater, better prepared individuals in the long-term. As a matter of fact, I sincerely believe that in the long-term it results in less smart, less wise, less critically inclined individuals, highly vulnerable to totalitarian forces of all sort (and do keep in mind that totalitarianism comes in all sorts of shapes and forms, not just in those presented by the Nazi or the Soviet Empire).
Such practices MAY result FOR SOME in narrowly specialized, stuffed-to-the-max-with-info worker bees, making an extra buck or two compared to the average earner, and sure enough over-worked and over-stressed; but certainly not "smarter".

The trouble is we have ceased to understand the many facets of "education" and its ultimate purpose. When kids play outside freely, in nature, and form friendships on their own, that's PART of education. Particularly at very young ages. But I do agree it is hard to swallow this one when everyone's (ans their brother's) kids have the reading and writing "technique" down by 4. The key word here is "technique". There will be very few who will end up with the "desire to know" in addition to the "techniques".

You were not sure whether I have any college plans for my kid.
Well, what I am not sure of is whether you intend to give your child some education that will serve him too, in addition to the kind that will serve primarily OTHERS. (They're called VIP-s, by the way).

Make no mistake about it, the type of "competitive, technical-at-the-core" education that is being shoved down our kids' throats today from 3 months old to cemetery (lifelong training ) is the type of education that serves primarily the VIP-s, not our kids. When you drive babies insane with letters and numbers plastered all over the place, from their cribs and walls to their pasta and Lord knows where else, you have already begun the "technical" training of your child. Not smart and not sane, as far as i am concerned.

I, for one, want to make sure my children will acquire both skills leading to a decent-to-good material standard of living AND education that will spell wisdom, wholistic understanding of the world, and quality of life.

To achieve that, I believe I need to keep my kids outside in nature, playing with other kids freely - as long as they are in the very first stages of their life (early childhood). It's as simple as that.

What's not simple is that I cannot find like-minded parents that easily.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 01:03 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,410,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorsenator View Post
I don't want to put words in her mouth, but ...
You placed them where they belong.

Greetings, professorsenator. Hope things have been going well for you and your family.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 02:07 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,410,218 times
Reputation: 3899
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Fun is all well and good after school hours
Miu, at 4 there really ARE NO "school hours". There ARE NO "academics" either. There's only "fun". Fun and academics overlap at this age. Or they better. That it's not like this anymore - THIS is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
... plus as a parent take him to places like constructions sites, airports, hospitals and farms... just to see what jobs might tickle his fancy.
Dear Miu, are you for real? Yes, you are, because if most people did not think like you do, I would have no problem in my hands right now.
You'd better be sure I will NOT take my 4 yo child, or even much older, to all those sites you suggested in order to identify what "JOBS" he might be good for. Are you serious? Do you think I am already out to identify a "career" for him? He is at a stage where he just takes life in, in all of its wonder and glory - or whatever glory is left of it - not when he (or I!!!) should already be thinking of how he will best serve the needs of the market. Yes, those sites are worth going to. Any sites are worth going to at his age. But not for the reasons you suggested.

You mentioned how your parents insisted on academics. I hate to lay it down this way, but you have no idea how mine insisted on the same thing! I have scars to prove it but that's a different story. I was lucky enough though to live in a system/time/place that did not cause parents to start on this obsession ahead of its natural time. When actual time for academics arrived, they started the drill. And somehow, with all that insistence on academics, there was also plenty of time for friendships and strong human bonds too. We had 24 hours in a day too, just like today - but we didn't have TV, Internet, all sorts of electronics, tons of personal toys and other isolating and alienating devices. We had school and play with friends. Oh, yeah - and a life.

There is a natural time and place for everything. Unfortunately, we have learned to defy nature and do it "our own way" in order to serve the needs of a market gone wild. Oops. Too bad for us and our kids. Wrong historical times to be born in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
And I would also take him to the public library every week and let him take out any books that he wanted to.
I do the same except I pick the books for him. He gets to pick some of his own too but somehow, he always ends up enjoying much better those I picked. He, he - he's a young chicken and I am a good ole hen. I believe in the wisdom of the elderly much better than in "rational choice" theory, particularly at 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Every local museum would be visited also, and I would take him to my favorite childhood museums in NYC. For outdoor fun, I'd take him a hikes in the mountains, sledding when there's snow out, and make sure that he got swimming lessons. Eventually, I would introduce him to more obscure sports like cross country skiing and fencing. Just exposing him to all kinds of things. Well not Barney the dinosaur though. I can't stand that purple creature. Also, I would teach my child about personal finances, and to not spend beyond their means, and to not be unhappy if they can't live like a rich celebrity. No child of mine would seriously want to buy or lease some $90K unless they made enough money and it were fiscally responsible to do so. And no child of mine would be brainwashed by tv commercials to want every new toy or gadget.
Good goals, good moves, good plans, good intentions, I am with you in all this. We're covering them too. We've all done our homework by now, haven't we (and somehow still run like crazy for bigger, better, faster, more as a society - but again, I digress). Now besides these activities, most of whom seem to be either organized, or paid or both, let me know where are the "SO-s". You know, the "significant others" of childhood. Those few "best pals" that we play spontaneously with in the neighborhood, share secrets with, bond with, create memories with. They may be cousins/family/classmates to be easily reached outside the organized classroom; or whoever. Just other little human beings that we share our little lives with and help us form our very first notions of community. Guess what. They are usually no longer there.
The so-called "friends" are fleeting, artificial, typically focused on personal advancement (not on the relationship itself) and imposed via over-organized groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Anyway, maybe I am also speaking from the viewpoint of an Asian, where developing self discipline is important, and having a filial duty to make my elders proud is just part of my culture, and I did just fine that way. My childhood was happy to me, and I am glad that my parents were firm with me. And it's still okay that my parents weren't "friends" with me, but adults to be respected and listened to.
That's fine too. I understand that part as I myself come from an "eastern" type of culture where parents used to not be that keen on letting kids completely at their own devices in the name of "freedom of choice" and "expression of individuality" (only to have that individuality brutally removed by monstruous corporate and mass-media forces).
But "being strict about academics" is not a complete parenting story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
And I'm glad that I didn't go to a community college, but I also don't look down on blue collar workers.
Speaking of oneupmanship, I think I am one step ahead of you on this one . There was no option for a "community college" and I also tend to secretly envy blue collar people sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
And part of being content with my life is knowing that by living within my means, I don't have to work like a crazy stressed out person.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
Sure, some of my friends must have been having teen sex or drinking, but it wasn't glorified by them or anyone else, and instead kept discrete...
If you only have a vague recollection of what they may have been doing, they were not your friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
And that money doesn't buy happiness.
It doesn't. Except when they get you from starving to not-starving or when you've got so much (and you are so wise!) that they allow you to pull out of the "free market" completely if you were to choose so. That you might not choose so anyway, that would be a different story. I, for one, would be curious to see how such a story would unfold but I am afraid I am stuck with the free market for life. And boy, is it "free" or what.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,479 posts, read 6,734,656 times
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One of the problems that is becoming more pronounced is that there is simply no place for a middle-ground school system.

The quality of a school system is highly connected to the value of the real estate within a community. High-performing districts are going to do whatever it takes to maintain their high status. Low performing districts are taking drastic actions with the assistance of the state and federal funds to improve their performance.

A school district that is in the middle is at the greatest risk because it often is a more economically diverse community. The federal funds aren't there to the same extent as the low-performing districts and the wealth isn't there to fill it in with private funds.

Once the scores start to drop those residents in the higher economic brackets start to move to higher-performing districts. Some residents from lower performing districts move up but the average scores continue to drop as more residents from lower performing districts move into the middle range than those from a higher-performing district moving down.

There was a disparity before NCLB between the lowest performing districts and the middle and upper ones. Now there is some improvement in the lowest-performing districts but a shrinking middle. Unfortunately, IMHO, as education moves away from local control the problem will only get worse creating an even larger void in the middle. A similar phenomenon is occurring to the middle class in general.

As Syracusa pointed out, learning to read at age 4 never hampered the ability of the majority of today's productive members of society from great achievement. In fact, past research indicated that forcing a child into reading before he/she was ready could adversely affect a child's reading.

What is very apparent is that despite teaching children academic skills and concepts at younger and younger ages it has not transferred into stronger social skills, common sense, or responsibility. These attributes are much stronger determining factors of success in life than being an early reader.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Amherst
123 posts, read 472,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
One of the problems that is becoming more pronounced is that there is simply no place for a middle-ground school system.
This is really the critical point. There is no place for the middle-ground system, there is no place for the middling students, there is no support for the middling communities, and few prospects for the middle class. The pushing of children to perform at ridiculously early ages reflects not only a constricted range of opportunities for most people, but also a loss of faith in the prospects of most of our children to find valued, worthwhile occupations. It is a spiritual crisis as well as an economic one.

After struggling to raise some very talented kids in a high-status school system (Brookline) I realized this was a fools game, and a damaging one at that. We moved out to live with the hippies and the academics out in Western Mass, and our kids have been much happier and well adjusted as a result.

This is not a good long term solution, so we are likely to be emigrating soon. The social contract in this country is just not acceptable any more.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 10:03 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,410,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenos View Post
The pushing of children to perform at ridiculously early ages reflects not only a constricted range of opportunities for most people, but also a loss of faith in the prospects of most of our children to find valued, worthwhile occupations. It is a spiritual crisis as well as an economic one.
Insightful and sharp as a razor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenos View Post
This is not a good long term solution, so we are likely to be emigrating soon. The social contract in this country is just not acceptable any more.
Where are you going? Will you take us with you?
As I heard in a movie... "Pretty pleeease?! With cherries on top??"
 
Old 03-03-2010, 01:46 AM
 
1,039 posts, read 3,442,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpanda View Post
I think the best suggestion would be for you to revisit some of the original threads you started here, and give a second thought to all the towns that people suggested that you immediately discounted because you assumed that only "top-of-the-line" schools were good enough. I mean this in a completely non-snide way--but I think you disregarded quite a bit of good advice.

What you describe above is absolutely foreign to me. I've never encountered anything like this in my parent social circles that span towns like Cambridge, Arlington, and Medford. That's the kind of thing that happens in the farther-flung 'burbs that are distinctively bland and NOT like Boston in nature. If you have your heart set on the "wiser, more enlightened, more aware", you're safer closer to downtown.
I haven't read through all the posts, but I couldn't agree more with this one. I remember that people gave you good advice about looking in places like Somerville and Arlington and you summarily dismissed them because they didn't have elite schools on paper. From what I recall, price and quality of housing in these locations weren't an issue (except for when you compared with your new Atlanta townhouse) and shouldn't be an issue if you're renting in Lynnfield now.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Amherst
123 posts, read 472,595 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Where are you going? Will you take us with you?
As I heard in a movie... "Pretty pleeease?! With cherries on top??"
My wife is a Canadian citizen who was born and grew up in Europe, and so has the right to live in the EU. I brought her to the US years ago thinking I was doing her such a blessing. Now I am willing to play the part of the immigrant, starting over in a new country, so our kids can get the education (multiple languages, rigorous standards, in a system that focuses on the talents and needs of the children and attempts to meet them) that will serve them best.

Still, though, I expect as adults they are likely to come back to North America as the structural economic problems in most of Europe will take decades longer to resolve than we will see here. Right now, at this moment in time, it feels like parental malpractice to march my kids into the American education industrial complex.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 08:26 AM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,410,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato the Elder View Post
I haven't read through all the posts, but I couldn't agree more with this one. I remember that people gave you good advice about looking in places like Somerville and Arlington and you summarily dismissed them because they didn't have elite schools on paper. From what I recall, price and quality of housing in these locations weren't an issue (except for when you compared with your new Atlanta townhouse) and shouldn't be an issue if you're renting in Lynnfield now.
No, Cato. It is not true. We didn't dismiss them. We actually imagined Arlington schools might in fact be even better than Lynnfield, given the more diverse/sophisticated/cosmopolitan feel, but we looked at a few places - in the very little time we had - and they were out of the question.
We ended up with three options available ansd we had to make a choice fast. My husband was pressed to move or else.

That being said, I am skeptical that in places like Arlington or Brookline, etc - my specific concerns would not have existed. See in fact above posts by other people. It is, unfortunately, a systemic issue and not a small one.

Last edited by syracusa; 03-03-2010 at 09:06 AM..
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