Worcester MA Rundown (Boston, Springfield, Cambridge: homes, high school, college)

[lrfox]

Fine, I guess I'm just a liar.

I used the term "cities" in passing, I'd assume that most people get the point and I would have to elaborate by saying something along the lines of "city-- as in within the specific city limits".

Furthermore, I said the following in my first post which I had hoped would get the point across but I guess it didn't:

some people can't grasp the concept that a city population alone says nothing about the actual size of the city

If you talked to someone from Washington DC do you think they jump down your throat if you told them your hotel was in Washington when really it was in Roslyn (Actually in Arlington VA)? No. When people talk about "cities", particularly large ones, they are often referring to the core of the metropolitan area. Boston is a perfect example. Yes, Cambridge is a separate municipality, but it's very much part of Boston's urban fabric which is why you hear people refer to MIT and Harvard as being "Boston schools." Pawtucket and Cranston are very much part of Providence's urban area. I never felt the need to elaborate on what I meant by "city."

You're right about crime. It's incredibly difficult to get a specific, accurate measure. Everything is weighted differently and to take it a step further, what's a crime in one place, may not be in another (chewing gum is illegal in Singapore... if that statistic were recored here we'd all be criminals). Still, you can get a general idea. Worcester is not as dangerous as many (most) similarly sized metro areas. The same thing holds true for most cities in the Northeast.

My tone is condescending because it's frustrating to constantly listen to ill-informed opinions (I'm going to add that this is not directed at you and is more of a general observation. Your post just happened to be the one I responded to). I understand that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinion (as they are entitled to respond to others' opinions). However, how people form their opinions is quite telling about how useful that opinion is. If someone can't understand that there's an enormous difference between a suburban city in a massive metro area like Scottsdale or Alexandria and a semi-independent mid-size city like Worcester than my patience grows thin.

I get it, you don't like Worcester and you like where you currently live better. That's fine (and quite frankly, a good thing... it's always better to remove yourself from bad situations rather than sit and complain about them). However, personal preference is key in deciding what's a good place for you. If you prefer a suburb outside of a major city, then a place like Scottsdale is absolutely a much better fit than Worcester. However, Scottsdale (like many of your other comparisons) is an entirely different type of built environment than Worcester which is why it and your other comparisons are so unfair.

The entire point of my responses is to say that Worcester compares reasonably well for a metropolitan area its size. There are some that are better in the minds of most people (Albuquerque stands out to me as one of them) but there are many that are far worse. If you want Boston or Providence type amenities, you won't find them in Worcester (or any other city Worcester's size). If you want trees, forests and small town charm, you won't find that in Worcester. If you want the ultimate cul-de-sac or suburban lifestyle you won't find much of that in Worcester either. To expect those things out of Worcester (or any similar urban area) is setting yourself up for disaster. It's unfair to Worcester and it's unfair to the person who expects those things.

However, for an metropolitan area of 800,000 people, Worcester does just fine. Not top of the class, but certainly not bottom.

[Moog666]

At least you admit that you are condescending. Next time be more clear and don't assume. You got frustrated because I was specifically talking about Worcester and not Worcester County. The metropolitan area in your link took in account a whole county. There are plenty of great places in Worcester County. There is some real nice country out there, but Worcester itself is no place to brag about.

I didn't know you were also talking about the Brookfields, Sterling, Princeton Athol, Clinton, Hubberston, Westborough, Westminister, etc. I wouldn't include all these places in a discussion about Worcester, but you have the right to include them. However, next time be clear in what you are discussing about. I wasn't talking about Worcester County. I was talking specifically about Worcester.

Cities, Metropolis, and Counties are different. That is why there are different words for them since they take on different meanings.

If we took your link and compared the ten populated places below and ten populated places above Worcester Country, then I still would say that Worcester Country does not stands out above the rest.

Not top of the class, but certainly not bottom.

I never said it was at the bottom of the class.

[lrfox]

Oh I was absolutely condescending. Too often do people come in to trash a city (with nothing to back it up) and never post again. You've at least responded (and didn't trash Worcester) and accurately pointed out that I should have been more specific. The condescending tone is reactionary. Not necessarily justified, but it's tough not to do it sometimes regarding secondary cities in MA. Too many people in these cities are incredibly insular and have no idea what they're talking about. My tone wasn't directed at you but was more a response to all of the unfounded negativity that just happened to be sparked by you post. Uncalled for? Probably. But don't take it personally, after all, I am just some random screen name on the internet. A wise person once told me that even if you win an online argument, you're still a loser.

It's confusing. I understand that. To be honest, MSA stats are difficult for New England as, like you said, they include the whole county. In the Rest of the country, most areas use the county system more than we do in New England (which is why a the city limits of a place like El Paso covers more land area than many entire New England counties). The best stat in those links is the NECTA (New England City and Town Area) which creates a metropolitan number based on cities and towns, not counties which in some cases can be misleading. Best example I can think of is Portland, Maine which has a city population of 63,000, a urbanized area population of 180,000, a NECTA of around 300,000 and a MSA of over 500,000. The MSA of Portland includes ALL of York, Cumberland and Sagadohoc Counties and the vast majority of those places are very rural. The Greater Portland area has around 250,000 people... half of what the MSA says. Worcesters MSA is a little overstated, but not nearly as bad as Portland.

Like crime, there's no 100% fool proof way to measure size, but the city limit population is the worst by a long shot. I like some combination of NECTA (or MSA outside of New England) and Urbanized Area. That's just a personal opinion though.

And for what it's worth, I don't "like" Worcester. I think it's O.K. I just think many of the gripes about the city are either overblown (crime) or unfair (talking about what Worcester doesn't have in relation to PVD or Boston). It is what it is.

[Lowerdeck]

The MSA for Worcester is all messed up, agreed.

Nobody would ever consider places like Royalston, Ashburnham, Athol, Blackstone, or Millville suburbs of Worcester. But you have places like Thompson, Conn. or Marlboro which are to some degree.

[lrfox]

^Yeah, the county based system for MSAs just doesn't work in New England as communities that are in no way "Metropolitan" are included. The NECTA numbers are far more helpful in that regard.

[Gabe1972]

I will agree with one thing, and this is from someone who lives in the heart of downtown. As a liveable CITY, Worcester fails. This is not to say as a whole it is an awful place to live, because it is not.

As has been mentioned by many people there are not many cities in America that are laid out like Worcester. There are more reasons then metro areas and population density to compare Worcester to many cities in the south and midwest. Many cities in these regions take up a huge amount of space. It is nothing to have a 300 sq mile city. Many times when you have a city like this the city and the suburbs are all within the city limits. In Worcester this is the case also, except it is in an area of 37 sq miles. Neighborhoods like Hadwen Park, Greendale, Quinsig Village and Tatnuck are suburban and very much resemble entire seperate towns that you can find outside other New England cities like Boston and Providence. Aside from Shrewsbury as soon as you leave Worcester city limits you enter very very very small towns. You can't find many 37 sq mile cities with 150,000 to 200,000 populations in this country where this is the case, if any at all. Worcester is an anomoly.

My point?

The urban parts of Worcester are God awful. They are improving, but they are awful. However, depending on what you are looking for Worcester can be a great place to live. I was living in Baltimore for a year and when I came back I spent a good two or three years being disappointed in my living situation because I wanted Worcester to be more like the good parts of Baltimore. Most of things I see on this board went through my head. Well why can't it be a dense vibrant city? It's the second biggest city in New England? What the hell is Worcester's problem?

The reason people like myself get the way I do about people slagging Worcester is that there is an unfair expectation about what Worcester should be. These expectations come from very unfair comparisons based upon an ignorance of what truly makes a city work. Everything (and I mean everything) about the way a city works is based upon density of it's metropolitan area.

You get West of Park Ave, North of WPI, East of 290 (aside from Vernon Hill) and south of Webster Sq and don't mind a suburban lifestyle (and an overall Northeastern lifestyle) that is within 5 minutes of all the city amenities you could want then Worcester is a fantastic place to live. If you want to live an inner city, walkable urban lifestyle than Worcester is a work in progress, key word being progress, which is being made in neighborhoods like, Downtown, North Main, Shrewsbury St, The Canal District and, believe it or not Peidmont Village.

It is unfair to expect Worcester to Be Providence, because is never will be. Providence by the way compares very favorably to Baltimore. How can that be though? One city is 175,000 people, one is 650,000. HOW CAN THAT BE????

[stevec3]

To those who believe Worcester is less than quality. Try living in another city outside of New England. Even the most beautiful and cultural lose their luster after a little while.
Examples of great cities: Austin, Denver, San Fran, Chicago, Boston and Melbourne AU. Each of these are alive and fairly safe to walk around. One could find many plus' for each. At the same time, there are several negatives; crime, areas you should avoid at night and most of all the long term personalities / interactions of the people.
I've spent reasonably long periods of time in each of them and nine years outside DC. Each time I am away for a spell I miss the earnest, sometimes in your face honesty of the people from the Worcester County area. You know where you stand with folks here. You are welcome to your own opinion here, as long as you don't try to force it upon others. Politely agreeing to disagree is considered welcome coffee talk. For the most part, you receive the real person from first met to many years later. The difference between those other cities and Worcester and its suburbs it that when you get to know someone, you are peeling through the layers of the onion. Whereas in other locals, especially from DC south, you are presented the flower of the plant up front and only later learn about the real person.
Count yourselves lucky to be able to sit at the counter of a local diner and enjoy the local flavor of the staff, the food and the person sitting next to you. It's the real deal.
To those considering moving to Worcester: if you are not a city person, work concentric circles around the city until you get to the density and suburbia you would enjoy. There are some great towns with equally wonderful schools. If you are a city person, enjoy all the mom and pop shops and restaurants, the ethnicity of the food and the nightlife that accompanies a college town. Worcester is full of thrift minded folks who enjoy a good bargain. That is what you get here. The flash is put aside in order for the proprietors to provide reasonable quality at reasonable prices. ...always with a little local color and flavor at no additional charge. ;-)

[anouk_pantoufle]

I'm contemplating a move to Worcester - and this is one of the best descriptions that has captured my interest so far! Lines up with who I am, so maybe making the move won't be so scary. I'm getting to the age where moving is less & less attractive to me - yet right now, I really have no choice. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise!

Thank you - hoping to drive out soon to take a look for myself.

Originally Posted by stevec3

To those who believe Worcester is less than quality. Try living in another city outside of New England. Even the most beautiful and cultural lose their luster after a little while.
Examples of great cities: Austin, Denver, San Fran, Chicago, Boston and Melbourne AU. Each of these are alive and fairly safe to walk around. One could find many plus' for each. At the same time, there are several negatives; crime, areas you should avoid at night and most of all the long term personalities / interactions of the people.
I've spent reasonably long periods of time in each of them and nine years outside DC. Each time I am away for a spell I miss the earnest, sometimes in your face honesty of the people from the Worcester County area. You know where you stand with folks here. You are welcome to your own opinion here, as long as you don't try to force it upon others. Politely agreeing to disagree is considered welcome coffee talk. For the most part, you receive the real person from first met to many years later. The difference between those other cities and Worcester and its suburbs it that when you get to know someone, you are peeling through the layers of the onion. Whereas in other locals, especially from DC south, you are presented the flower of the plant up front and only later learn about the real person.
Count yourselves lucky to be able to sit at the counter of a local diner and enjoy the local flavor of the staff, the food and the person sitting next to you. It's the real deal.
To those considering moving to Worcester: if you are not a city person, work concentric circles around the city until you get to the density and suburbia you would enjoy. There are some great towns with equally wonderful schools. If you are a city person, enjoy all the mom and pop shops and restaurants, the ethnicity of the food and the nightlife that accompanies a college town. Worcester is full of thrift minded folks who enjoy a good bargain. That is what you get here. The flash is put aside in order for the proprietors to provide reasonable quality at reasonable prices. ...always with a little local color and flavor at no additional charge. ;-)

[khali20830]

I feel like I should put my own 2-cents in. I'm 17 and grew up in the vernon hill-grafton hill area. My father grew up on the same block aswell. I for one love and adore worcester. It seems to be the greatest place I've been too. I hate leaving here because I get homesick. I have very fond memories here. Many friends, even some I've known since I was a child I still talk to. People are friendly and nice. The schools are good. Resturants are great here too. I go to the summer nationals like every year and its a lot of fun. I absolutely love worcester, 4 generations of my family has lived here if not more. And we all love worcester. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, and I feel who ever spends enough time here will fall inlove with it also. there's ALWAYS something to do and ull never find yourself bored. However, I don't mean to be a buzz kill for the saftey of the city and all. But the crime rate is really high right now compared to before. My friend kevin "kk" was killed in crompton park. He was shot in the back of the head. This halloween another person I kno was murdered because of an arguement. His name was galdo,even though he wasn't MY friend he was my sister's friend. He was shot in the chest point-blank and died. These are people I myself knew. However talking about other people I didn't know. A few months ago 5 people where shot, on pleasant street and a different street (I don't remember the street name) and on valentines day this year a man was gunned down on the way to his girlfriends house. Also a college girl was killed recently, outside my friends apartment on fairfax road she was shot dead in her lexus. The police found her in her car with the car still running they determin the people who shot her wanted marijuanna that she had stashed in her car. Also down the street from where I grew up a fugative ( don't think he was from worcester, or mass in general) was running from the police on grafton str and when he figured he couldent outrun the police he turned pulled a gun and shot at the cops. Thankfully the cops stopped him and noone was hurt, but the fugative was shot 2 times in the chest. .. there has been soo many shootings this year. It seems like everytime I open a newspaper something else is going on. BUT the thing is about the crime in worcester is as simple as this. IF u don't go asking for trouble ull never find any. Everything that has happened around here is either drug related or gang related. And very very very rarely spill into innocent people. I walk around these streets all hours of the night by myself and never even so much had to defend myself, main south, great brook vallet, lakeside and my area of vernon hill. Don't go looking for trouble and ull find worcester is a very safe place. But if u get yourself into drugs or gangs for whatever reason expect violence the same as u would anywhere else. There is always a motive behind the crime and it seems to always be drugs lately.

*Edit- btw all these shootings I've talked about were this year alone. However it seems this is the worst the city has seen in a very long time.

[Gabe1972]

Originally Posted by khali20830

I feel like I should put my own 2-cents in. I'm 17 and grew up in the vernon hill-grafton hill area. My father grew up on the same block aswell. I for one love and adore worcester. It seems to be the greatest place I've been too. I hate leaving here because I get homesick. I have very fond memories here. Many friends, even some I've known since I was a child I still talk to. People are friendly and nice. The schools are good. Resturants are great here too. I go to the summer nationals like every year and its a lot of fun. I absolutely love worcester, 4 generations of my family has lived here if not more. And we all love worcester. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, and I feel who ever spends enough time here will fall inlove with it also. there's ALWAYS something to do and ull never find yourself bored. However, I don't mean to be a buzz kill for the saftey of the city and all. But the crime rate is really high right now compared to before. My friend kevin "kk" was killed in crompton park. He was shot in the back of the head. This halloween another person I kno was murdered because of an arguement. His name was galdo,even though he wasn't MY friend he was my sister's friend. He was shot in the chest point-blank and died. These are people I myself knew. However talking about other people I didn't know. A few months ago 5 people where shot, on pleasant street and a different street (I don't remember the street name) and on valentines day this year a man was gunned down on the way to his girlfriends house. Also a college girl was killed recently, outside my friends apartment on fairfax road she was shot dead in her lexus. The police found her in her car with the car still running they determin the people who shot her wanted marijuanna that she had stashed in her car. Also down the street from where I grew up a fugative ( don't think he was from worcester, or mass in general) was running from the police on grafton str and when he figured he couldent outrun the police he turned pulled a gun and shot at the cops. Thankfully the cops stopped him and noone was hurt, but the fugative was shot 2 times in the chest. .. there has been soo many shootings this year. It seems like everytime I open a newspaper something else is going on. BUT the thing is about the crime in worcester is as simple as this. IF u don't go asking for trouble ull never find any. Everything that has happened around here is either drug related or gang related. And very very very rarely spill into innocent people. I walk around these streets all hours of the night by myself and never even so much had to defend myself, main south, great brook vallet, lakeside and my area of vernon hill. Don't go looking for trouble and ull find worcester is a very safe place. But if u get yourself into drugs or gangs for whatever reason expect violence the same as u would anywhere else. There is always a motive behind the crime and it seems to always be drugs lately.

*Edit- btw all these shootings I've talked about were this year alone. However it seems this is the worst the city has seen in a very long time.

I am glad you ended this post like you did. I second this however I would like to see something done about the people who hang out in the common and around downtown and Kelley Sq who, whether they are or not, appear to be either dealing drugs or generally up to no good. If you've lived here a while, especially in any of the "scary" neighborhoods you know that most of these people are harmless, specifically if you are not involved in the drug trade. Perception is reality however, and if Worcester wants to get serious about attracting the middle class back to the urban core, they need to get this element out of neighborhoods like Downtown, Federal Sq and the Canal District and change the perception that these neighborhoods are not scary places where it is dangerous to walk a few blocks to pleasant places to live, shop, and, dine in a vibrant urban atmosphere. Those who know, know that they are, but the majority of people in the area, specifically New England natives, are convinced that Worcester is a scary, dangerous place. As long as there are thuggish looking people standing on the corners, people will continue to believe that these are thuggish neighborhoods.