Confederate flags in Memphis (farm, deal, money)

[waccamatt]

Originally Posted by RikBrooks

Have you ever heard of the Society for Creative Anachronism? They celebrate the middle ages in the same way, authentic costumes, armor, knights, jousting, the whole shebang. Except of course they use rattan swords instead of real ones when fighting. Nobody gets hurt very badly.

For a lot of people though the problems in the US began with the Civil War. My family calls it the War of Northern Aggression. It is undeniably when the federal government began asserting power over the state governments. It is when we lost the Republic as a form of government and a Federalism was born.

We lost the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution with that war. A lot of people are not pleased with that.

It's true that ending slavery is a good thing but the war wasn't about slavery. Note that Lincoln was a huge racist. He wanted to make interracial relationships illegal and he wanted to ship all blacks out of the country, first to Africa and when that was too expensive to Haiti.

While the war wasn't just about slavery, it was a significant part. If you don't believe me, read the declarations of secession and slavery is a substantial part of them.

Declarations of Secession

[hawkster]

When I moved down here 15-16 years ago I thought most every one would be wearing cowboy boots

[RikBrooks]

I really don't want to argue the causes of the War of Northern Aggression here. In response to the declaration of secessions offered there are other declarations of secession that didn't even mention slavery.

As with many wars there were multiple causes. If you read Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address you will find that slavery was not one of the reasons. It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that the Civil War was all about whether or not a state had the right to secede or not. The Southern states seceded, the Northern states denied that.

War ensued.

The north didn't want to admit, "We attacked you to bully you back into our union." because that would make clear the obvious - they enslaved the south. So they had to have a high-sounding reason for their invasion - ending slavery sounded good. Significantly slavery was not ended in the north until several years AFTER the War of Norther Aggression ended so it really wasn't about slavery.

Slavery was a cool justification for overt and, by modern standards, thoroughly illegal war.

I have a sticker of a Confederate flag on my back windshield. The words around it say "Heritage, not hate". I am certainly not a bigot. I'm proud that I am very color blind. I spent years in Texas so yes, I wear a cowboy hat (Stetson) and boots.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by ktalley

I looked up this Bedford Forest person,
Was his KKK the same racist KKK we have today or was it different?

Well Forrest did disavow the KKK when it became too violent in the late 1800's. But he essentially started it. He's a colorful character in history, a great general, but a man of his times - Memphis slave trader, and tied to a controversial massacre of black soldiers at Fort Pillow.

[RikBrooks]

Originally Posted by Dd714

Well Forrest did disavow the KKK when it became too violent in the late 1800's. But he essentially started it. He's a colorful character in history, a great general, but a man of his times - Memphis slave trader, and tied to a controversial massacre of black soldiers at Fort Pillow.

What a shame but you know what? Hindsight is 20/20. Let's just be happy that we live in the 2000's where we know better.

We are busy making DIFFERENT mistakes.

[strumpeace]

Originally Posted by RikBrooks

I really don't want to argue the causes of the War of Northern Aggression here. In response to the declaration of secessions offered there are other declarations of secession that didn't even mention slavery.

As with many wars there were multiple causes. If you read Abraham Lincoln's first innaugural address you will find that slavery was not one of the reasons. It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that the Civil War was all about whether or not a state had the right to secede or not. The Southern states seceded, the Northern states denied that.

War ensued.

The north didn't want to admit, "We attacked you to bully you back into our union." because that would make clear the obvious - they enslaved the south. So they had to have a high-sounding reason for their invasion - ending slavery sounded good. Significantly slavery was not ended in the north until several years AFTER the War of Norther Aggression ended so it really wasn't about slavery.

Slavery was a cool justification for overt and, by modern standards, thoroughly illegal war.

What a very skewed version of history. It's sad there are still people out there who buy rewritten history. Fortunately, this kind of thing is fading away.

[RikBrooks]

Originally Posted by strumpeace

What a very skewed version of history. It's sad there are still people out there who buy rewritten history. Fortunately, this kind of thing is fading away.

Not going to argue with you Strumpeace other than to say that my sources were official documents. Nothing was rewritten. I got everything from the horse's mouth and my opinion, Sir, is every bit as valid as your's.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by RikBrooks

Not going to argue with you Strumpeace other than to say that my sources were official documents. Nothing was rewritten. I got everything from the horse's mouth and my opinion, Sir, is every bit as valid as your's.

How I would love to debate this topic but I think then this post will be shunted to the history forum, where there have been some excellent debates on the origins of this civil war by very knowledgable people. Be forewarned - people there know their history well, and you will be corrected sternly if you don't understand the complex political and social realities of that time (by myself, and by others). They don't take kindly to "revisionist history" when it's taken out of context to the period in discussion.

Suffice it to say, technically you are correct, their were multiple causes besides slavery, and it could be argued that the union and Lincoln was trying to seperate the issue of slavery from the issue of the preservation of the union, at least at the beginning phases of the war. But the institution of slavery was the main issue that caused the south to sucede, and it's correct that history judges that as the driving force and jusitification of the war.

[mzloolue]

Originally Posted by ktalley

I looked up this Bedford Forest person,
Was his KKK the same racist KKK we have today or was it different?

NB Forrest was involved in setting up the KKK.

But what you rarely see mentioned is that he disbanded the KKK in 1868. Apparently it was too racist and violent even for Forrest.

So, the KKK may claim it is the same organization, but it is kind of open to interpretation.

[Pearlbob]

Good point...let's go back to the original question, which was flags in Memphis vs Seattle. Try and keep the history discussions to the history forum.