Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have a lot of thoughts on it too... but no answers.
I don't know why we drink the way we do. At times, it looks like we're attempting suicide the way we drink, and this is regardless of outer circumstances.
Yet we awaken remorseful and horrified.
This is as true for the hard-core addict.
That moment in time... just seconds before I slip into a blackout... aka oblivion... I think I experience a state called bliss.
Why?
Some mystics say because I reach a point where all the clouds that are blocking me from my true self... my true being are removed for perhaps just a moment. The next day, my soul seeks it yet again and my brain seeks the addiction part of it... aka repeating "SUCCESS".
I have a lot of thoughts on it too... but no answers.
I don't know why we drink the way we do. At times, it looks like we're attempting suicide the way we drink, and this is regardless of outer circumstances.
Yet we awaken remorseful and horrified.
This is as true for the hard-core addict.
That moment in time... just seconds before I slip into a blackout... aka oblivion... I think I experience a state called bliss.
Why?
Some mystics say because I reach a point where all the clouds that are blocking me from my true self... my true being are removed for perhaps just a moment. The next day, my soul seeks it yet again and my brain seeks the addiction part of it... aka repeating "SUCCESS".
I'm of the opinion that you make this seem like this whole thing fell upon you... like you're the victim in all of this. He trapped you.
Not at all, sorry to disappoint. I am responsible for the choices I made. I also was raised with the sort of mindset that you are to always put yourself aside and help someone else, over and over again. I also had some kind of a need for crises, and alcholic is always happy to provide them. I don't see where you would say he "trapped" me. He certainly determined on some level that I was ripe for the picking to be taken advantage of, though. That's probably a default instinct in any addict type.
I had rarely had an opportunity to date, and he had already been married once. He had been a football player in high school and had a lot of friends and was good-looking, too. I knew this was the only chance I was going to have to marry and have children like other people. I thought I was lucky.
The rocks in my head matched the holes in his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
Ummm... yeah!
Back in your day... and in mine as well... there were shows like Little House on the Prairie, and The Waltons... each with little simple moral lessons.
We make choices. We choose whom we are to befriend... whom we date.
Until I face the fact that "My troubles are of my own making", then I'm doomed to be ruled by others. When I drank a lot of booze, I tried to be the life of the party. I tried to be nice to people to get them to like me. I tried to be generous with money. Now, I befriend people who are decent and kind... not necessarily "nice" to me. More often than not, when people are "nice" to me, I smell more. They usually want something from me. This is true of the internet too.
Alcoholics are not too different than "normies". They... we... just worship the wrong things from time to time. Drunkenness is merely a path to a state of conciousness, albeit a borrowed and stolen experience. Drunks are made of the same stuff everybody else is... but I don't have to open my bedroom or home up to each and everyone of them. I can chose whom I will befriend and whom I will become intimate with. If that goes astray and live a long time suffering from a bad choice, that's on me.
My choices ARE on me, as I've stated. I'm not new to this and I certainly don't need your little lectures. I made the choice to get rid of him long ago, remember? And I made the choice to detach and cut off my best friend when she chose to drink again after seven years of sobriety. Those were not easy decisions.
Regardless, this does not mean that I, or anyone else who ever loved an alcoholic, needs to lay down and accept all the blame for someone else's cruelty and just pretend that they didn't hurt us because we made the mistake of letting them in. THEY DID. I have permanent financial issues from which I can never recover because of him. I have bad memories of things that were said and done to me that pop into my head in the dead of night sometimes and will haunt me forever. I loved an alcoholic once and he said he loved me. And he lied. BECAUSE HE IS AN ALCOHOLIC AND THAT'S WHAT ALCOHOLICS DO, but that alone doesn't make it feel any better. I did not deserve to be treated the way I was treated, whether I was ignorant or not facing reality or an idiot or whatever. I did not deserve that, and I don't find "well, he's just got a li'l ol' disease" to be a sufficient excuse.
The memories recede most of the time, and we learn not to be the person we once were and the alarm bells go off when the alkies or other people who would use us come around, and we know now how to not let them in. But there's damage, and it never goes completely away, any more than your addiction will ever go completely away.
What I relate to is that I can be very idealistic and have a penchant for putting things out of my mind and giving people "another chance." I don't want to believe anyone is truly cruel or mean or just sick (in the sense of morally depraved). That is my fault and my issue but I don't think it gives the other person a free pass to be as nasty and horrible as possible.
What I relate to is that I can be very idealistic and have a penchant for putting things out of my mind and giving people "another chance." I don't want to believe anyone is truly cruel or mean or just sick (in the sense of morally depraved). That is my fault and my issue but I don't think it gives the other person a free pass to be as nasty and horrible as possible.
No, it does not. And I always thought as you do, but not any more. As a matter of fact, I have had to re-evaluate myself at intervals because I did NOT want to grow old and bitter and cynical about all humans. People have to be taken as individuals as you meet them in life, one by one.
But, no, no one has a free pass to be as nasty and horrible as possible, and you have to guard your heart sometimes and set boundaries to keep such people from intruding into your world and causing you harm, including emotional, spiritual, or mental harm.
No, it does not. And I always thought as you do, but not any more. As a matter of fact, I have had to re-evaluate myself at intervals because I did NOT want to grow old and bitter and cynical about all humans. People have to be taken as individuals as you meet them in life, one by one.
But, no, no one has a free pass to be as nasty and horrible as possible, and you have to guard your heart sometimes and set boundaries to keep such people from intruding into your world and causing you harm, including emotional, spiritual, or mental harm.
I agree. I'm not good at that, especially not with family - but I am getting better in my old age.
...because I did NOT want to grow old and bitter and cynical about all humans.
No, I don't think anybody would want to if they knew the full ramifications of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
But, no, no one has a free pass to be as nasty and horrible as possible, and you have to guard your heart sometimes and set boundaries to keep such people from intruding into your world and causing you harm, including emotional, spiritual, or mental harm.
True as well... and you might as well add "pocketbook"... but there's nothing you nor I nor anybody else can do about it short of leaving certain folks alone. If there was anything anybody could do to "cure" an alcoholic, "control" an alcoholic, "Love" an alcoholic, etc. to get them to change their behavior, they would have recovered long long ago.
There's a line in the big book that says, "B) that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism."
We must remember that booze is not "the problem." Booze is merely a symptom of the problem with the alcoholic.
I think that this is what is so fascinating about the whole notion of 12 step recovery... damaged folks getting together to try to help and support their like-minded damaged fellows.
Tell me this; what worked prior to 1935? What did they do with hopeless helpless low-bottom drunks prior to Bill saying, "I'm going to try and stay sober for a day by trying to help out another alcoholic, then when/if they get dried up for a day, tag them and say, 'OK, now you're it. Go help the next alky.'"? Answer; they put them into asylums... which were NOT the same as treatment centers. They basically locked them up.
A.A. attempts to enable the suffering alcoholic to go to work on their inner world and clean it up just enough to be freed up from self-will/ego just enough so the power of Goodness can come in and show them a "sufficient substitute."
But to sit back and stare at the alcoholic...whether still wet or in recovery... and brow-beat them and judge them... then you just sort of have one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow and guess what you've just done to your day today?
This may sound ridiculous or harsh, but I'll never again try and stand between an alky and their next drink. Not all may recover either. Some are considered "beyond human aid" in A.A. This describes perhaps all of us to some degree, but I mean the guy/gal who will die drinking no matter what. What about them? Has anyone heard of a Wet House? I think it's a good idea for these very few. I cannot watch these "Intervention" shows because when they get to the point where the perp tells the family off and is offended by their frothy emotional appeal, the tears, the letters, etc., and the "addict" or "alcoholic" perp just wants to be left alone... save for stealing, lying, and manipulating every penny they can cop from their "loved ones" for the next drink/fix. Oh, and the poor grandma who still has hope that they are helping their loved grandchild... I say Wet House... and let them make their own booze/drug... and maybe a knife so they can whittle their own coffin.
No, I don't think anybody would want to if they knew the full ramifications of it.
True as well... and you might as well add "pocketbook"... but there's nothing you nor I nor anybody else can do about it short of leaving certain folks alone. If there was anything anybody could do to "cure" an alcoholic, "control" an alcoholic, "Love" an alcoholic, etc. to get them to change their behavior, they would have recovered long long ago.
That's exactly what I've been saying here. The only addition is, in line with the topic of this thread, is that Al-anon and similar codie programs tell us--in addition to the changes the enabler/codie has to make to themselves--that we are not to be angry for what was done to us because it's just a disease. Well, I am taking exception to that. I AM angry, whether it's a disease or not, whether the person remembers or cares what they did or not or whether they choose to sober up or not. I will not have my feelings invalidated to fit some "program". It took me a long time to get here and realize that I had the right to say and feel this way. Trying to bury those feelings for too long was not healthy FOR ME.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
There's a line in the big book that says, "B) that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism."
We must remember that booze is not "the problem." Booze is merely a symptom of the problem with the alcoholic.
I agree with this 100% and have said so repeatedly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
I think that this is what is so fascinating about the whole notion of 12 step recovery... damaged folks getting together to try to help and support their like-minded damaged fellows.
Tell me this; what worked prior to 1935? What did they do with hopeless helpless low-bottom drunks prior to Bill saying, "I'm going to try and stay sober for a day by trying to help out another alcoholic, then when/if they get dried up for a day, tag them and say, 'OK, now you're it. Go help the next alky.'"? Answer; they put them into asylums... which were NOT the same as treatment centers. They basically locked them up.
Don't know if you've ever seen the old black-and-white movie called "Bedlam". The word bedlam comes from the mental hospital in London called St. Mary's of Bethlehem. A man who wants to get his wife out of the way claims she is mentally ill and has her committed to Bedlam. While inside, she begins to interact with some of the other patients. At one point, she tells a man she's been talking to that he doesn't seem to be crazy. He says, "Oh no, I'm not. My family just puts me in here to keep me off the drink."
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
A.A. attempts to enable the suffering alcoholic to go to work on their inner world and clean it up just enough to be freed up from self-will/ego just enough so the power of Goodness can come in and show them a "sufficient substitute."
But to sit back and stare at the alcoholic...whether still wet or in recovery... and brow-beat them and judge them... then you just sort of have one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow and guess what you've just done to your day today?
This may sound ridiculous or harsh, but I'll never again try and stand between an alky and their next drink. Not all may recover either. Some are considered "beyond human aid" in A.A. This describes perhaps all of us to some degree, but I mean the guy/gal who will die drinking no matter what. What about them? Has anyone heard of a Wet House? I think it's a good idea for these very few. I cannot watch these "Intervention" shows because when they get to the point where the perp tells the family off and is offended by their frothy emotional appeal, the tears, the letters, etc., and the "addict" or "alcoholic" perp just wants to be left alone... save for stealing, lying, and manipulating every penny they can cop from their "loved ones" for the next drink/fix. Oh, and the poor grandma who still has hope that they are helping their loved grandchild... I say Wet House... and let them make their own booze/drug... and maybe a knife so they can whittle their own coffin.
My solution is to detach and keep away from the alcoholics who have given me grief. One makes me sad, because she was once my best friend. I tell myself that she is dead, and I'm sure one of these days I will learn from her family that she is indeed dead. She is one of those whom you describe as beyond human aid. There were many in her regular AA meeting who tried to help--people with decades of sobriety--and they had to give up on her, as well, for their own sanity.
The ex-husband I still have to have my occasional moments of teeth-grinding with, because we have a daughter and so his stupid alkie tricks sometimes still impinge upon my life and financial situation. However, to counterbalance that, when these things occur I still find moments of absolute joy, even after ten years, that I am no longer married to him.
[quote=mightyqueen801;23971976]that's exactly what i've been saying here. The only addition is, in line with the topic of this thread, is that al-anon and similar codie programs tell us--in addition to the changes the enabler/codie has to make to themselves--that we are not to be angry for what was done to us because it's just a disease. Well, i am taking exception to that. I am angry, whether it's a disease or not, whether the person remembers or cares what they did or not or whether they choose to sober up or not. I will not have my feelings invalidated to fit some "program". It took me a long time to get here and realize that i had the right to say and feel this way. Trying to bury those feelings for too long was not healthy for me.
Quote:
totally agree. No one even has the power to invalidate your feelings mq. It is precisely those feelings that empower you today.
don't know if you've ever seen the old black-and-white movie called "bedlam". The word bedlam comes from the mental hospital in london called st. Mary's of bethlehem. A man who wants to get his wife out of the way claims she is mentally ill and has her committed to bedlam. While inside, she begins to interact with some of the other patients. At one point, she tells a man she's been talking to that he doesn't seem to be crazy. He says, "oh no, i'm not. My family just puts me in here to keep me off the drink."
[quote]great film. Another great one that few remember is Ray Milland's oscar winning performance in "Lost Weekend." the imagery showing his DT's is still stuck in my head today. Stage 3 is not a pretty sight. Your ex is probably nearing in on that phase.[/quote]
my solution is to detach and keep away from the alcoholics who have given me grief. One makes me sad, because she was once my best friend. I tell myself that she is dead, and i'm sure one of these days i will learn from her family that she is indeed dead. She is one of those whom you describe as beyond human aid. There were many in her regular aa meeting who tried to help--people with decades of sobriety--and they had to give up on her, as well, for their own sanity.
Quote:
detachment is key. I have to do it a lot myself even being in the program. My motto for newcomers: "if you want what i have, you gotta do what i did !"[/quote]
the ex-husband i still have to have my occasional moments of teeth-grinding with, because we have a daughter and so his stupid alkie tricks sometimes still impinge upon my life and financial situation. However, to counterbalance that, when these things occur i still find moments of absolute joy, even after ten years, that i am no longer married to him.
[quote]you have mastered your boundaries with him and i bet the skills you have learned are what contributes to the joy and happiness you experience today as you apply those tools of living in all of your daily affairs.[/quote]
Last edited by Pawporri; 04-22-2012 at 11:34 AM..
Reason: Spelling
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
