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Saying "plenty of countries" is not answering the question, who has a better system? The only other country you named specifically was China, so are you hereby asserting that China has a better and more fair judicial system that the U.S.?
I never said innocent didn't get convicted, I said as a percentage it is not very high. When you have two million people in jail, the absolute numbers of those who are innocent will be significant. And of those, like the C-files you used to read for entertainment, how many of them had rap sheets? A lot of so-called innocents take the fall because they have put themselves in position to be suspected based on previous history and reputation. Cops don't just yank random guys off the street when there's been a rash of crimes, they yank the guys who have a history. Cops know the players in their beat, they know who always seems to have money but never seems to have a job.
First of all, I never entertained myself with the c-files. I had a job to do and those files are not open to anyone unless you have a legitimate job to do.
I was not pretending to know everything DiverTodd. It was my opinion that, the US has a HUGE problem based on my personal experience working with Corrections. We do have a good judicial system but I believe it needs improvement because...it makes no sense to me that we (U.S.) have 5% of the total world population and we have 25% of the world's in prisons. I dont know about you, but I dont think we have that many BAD Americans.
As I said, we live in a society where minorities are targeted and I dont believe in generalizations such as the ones you mentioned where "cops know the players" and they yank those with a history or those that are unemployed. Geez, the way the unemployment rate is...that is a scary thing. There is no telling if someone has a history by simply looking at them. I rather look at the evidence and my experience. I know that as a minority I have a higher rate of being stopped by a cop. I personally knew many prisoners who were working with human rights organizations to prove their innocence. I read in the newspaper often about someone being released after years of being incarcerated for a crime they never committed.
Im not saying that all cops are bad cops. There are plenty of good cops and as a whole, I would trust one in the US more than I would in Mexico. That is the honest truth. However, I am not one to say, we have one of the best in the world considering the facts because it gives the perception that we are okay with the abuses, that we lack the understanding and magnitude of the problem. It is just as bad as listening to other countries say, "At least we are not as bad as Rwanda" or some random country.
Quote:
Mr. Garcetti said in an interview late today that he
expected more cases to be overturned and more
prosecutors to be assigned to the investigation. The
police have disclosed that perhaps 100 cases might
have been tainted by planted evidence, false testimony
or other police abuses.
You can choose to read the article, or not. It doesnt matter. I respect your opinion but I stand by what I stated. Besides, this thread is not about the US, its about Mexican Reform of "presumption of guilt". This is something I feel very passionate about because by changing the status to "Innocent until proven guilty"...we will save Mexico's young, bright and future generation.
As I said, we live in a society where minorities are targeted and I dont believe in generalizations such as the ones you mentioned where "cops know the players" and they yank those with a history or those that are unemployed.
No, you just believe in generalizations like saying cops profile against minorities. I didn't say just unemployed, but at the same time having lotsa bling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana
Im not saying that all cops are bad cops. There are plenty of good cops and as a whole, I would trust one in the US more than I would in Mexico. That is the honest truth. However, I am not one to say, we have one of the best in the world considering the facts because it gives the perception that we are okay with the abuses, that we lack the understanding and magnitude of the problem. It is just as bad as listening to other countries say, "At least we are not as bad as Rwanda" or some random country.
You apparently are also not one to answer the question and say just who has a better system. Looking at it from the flip side, there are also plenty who excuse the abuses and shortcomings in other systems by pointing out all the flaws in the U.S. system and saying it has HUGE problems too.
A short video presentation of Roberto and Jeffrey, the filmmakers responsible for making this happen. Pay close attention to Roberto's speech. He is a native of Mexico D.F., practices law and has a better understanding of the Mexican Justice System than any of us...including most Mexicans. As he quotes, "...Mexicans dont know...Mexicans are going to find out."
A 1.5 hour vid on how four innocent US men were convicted of rape and murder.
And your point? Let me repeat. I never said innocent didn't get convicted, I said as a percentage it is not very high. If you're looking for the perfect system, you'll have to wait for the next life.
Fact is, they confessed and they were not even tortured. Being interrogated and called a liar is not torture. If they can't handle a hostile interrogation and being called a liar and threatened with prosecution, did they think it would be nicer serving life in a federal prison? The U.S. system has lots of safeguards to prevent this kind of thing. They had a right to remain silent. They didn't. They had a right to an attorney. They didn't ask for one until after the confessions.
I was not trying to make any point. I hear you, I respect your opinion but I do not share it. Simple as that. I posted the last link for your "entertainment". If you want to discuss the U.S. Justice System, a better forum would be Political and other Controversies.
Anyway, you should really watch the film "Presunto Culpable" or "Presumed Guilty". It will surprise you to find commonalities in the interrogation tactics.
Roberto, the filmmaker, is also a graduate of UC Berkeley where he studied law. The last link was his recommendation and it was his opinion and his Berkeley colleague's same opinion regarding what you and I were debating. Besides, percentage wise is indifferent to me...its the many cases. And its the attitude in which one approaches it. I believe there is lots of work to do. These are lives, people that are spending life sentences behind bars while being innocent. That's HUGE...what an injustice. In the end, we both mean well for our country. So, since they (Roberto and his colleagues) are more educated on the subject, I will side with the experts.
For anyone interested in reading a movie review from "Presumed Guilty". Here is the link:
I leave you with today's quote from Pres. Felipe Calderon, "Un hombre que piensa, que lee y que ama intensamente al paÃs, es un hombre que tiene buena parte de su alma en su biblioteca." (Facebook 1/18)
Translation: A man that thinks, reads and loves his country intensely is a man that has a great part of his soul in a library.
I cant wait to hear from the media regarding the movie and the reactions from the viewers.
Denise Dresser dedicates an article on "El Manana" newspaper for Presunto Culpable.
Quote:
For the hundreds of thousands of Mexican prisoners, the fundamental principles of the had process and the presumption of innocence are not applied. Imprisonment still becomes a punishment before the conviction. The myth of the presumed innocent is replaced by the reality of the presumed culprit. And if after 804 days in prison, Jose Antonio Zúñiga is declared “acquittedâ€, it must to the arduous work of those who realised a documentary one to prove it. Of those who - as Robert Hernandez and Layda Negrete- demands that it is possible to videograbar all the recognitions of people, all the judgments, all the interrogations. Of those who insist that the presumed innocent has right to that the judge is present in the judgment, and that judgment is oral.
Translation result for http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=219520 (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elmanana.com. mx%2Fnotas.asp%3Fid%3D219520&lp=es_en&.intl=us&fr= yfp-t-701 - broken link)
DiverTodd62: You apparently are also not one to answer the question and say just who has a better system. Looking at it from the flip side, there are also plenty who excuse the abuses and shortcomings in other systems by pointing out all the flaws in the U.S. system and saying it has HUGE problems too.
If other countries have worse systems than the U.S. why would that excuse not improving the U.S. system? We should never have an innocent person behind bars. There are many ways to prevent that. It's not that hard to improve the U.S. system and stop convicting innocent people. Other than the cruelty of an innocent person losing years of his life or his life, the guilty person is out still committing crimes.
If you wouldn't want it to happen to you, to be convicted of a crime you didn't commit, don't let it happen to someone else.
Quote:
DiverTodd62: Fact is, they confessed and they were not even tortured. Being interrogated and called a liar is not torture. If they can't handle a hostile interrogation and being called a liar and threatened with prosecution, did they think it would be nicer serving life in a federal prison?
The average I.Q. of people in prison is 90. Smart people are rarely convicted because they know how to handle an interrogation. Simple minded people will tell an interrogator what the interrogator wants to hear. We cannot convict people just because they are stupid and easy to fool. Being stupid is not a criminal offense.
Quote:
In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation (also known as Blackstone's ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle: "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.
Mexico does not have a "Presumption of Innocence" judicial system. "Presumption of Innocence" means it is up to the prosecution to prove the defendant committed a crime and the defendant is entitled to bail.
Mexican criminal law has several interesting and distinctive features. In Mexico, one is deemed guilty until proven innocent. No death penalty exists in Mexico, a feature Mexico shares with most Latin American countries for historic reasons. In Mexico, the commission of fraud is a criminal offense, unlike most fraud in the U.S., which is usually considered a civil "tort". In virtually all Mexican prisons, prisoners are allowed regular conjugal visits, and greater freedoms within the confines of the prisons, than in most U.S. penitentiaries. Mexican law never allows parole or bail on personal recognizance. An individual charged with a criminal offense must post a financial bond to be released on bail, which may not be available if the potential sentence in years surpasses a certain limit under a formula set forth in Mexico's Constitution.
Mexico does not have a "Presumption of Innocence" judicial system. "Presumption of Innocence" means it is up to the prosecution to prove the defendant committed a crime and the defendant is entitled to bail.
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