Could Tenochtitlan ever be partially re-built?

[UrbanLuis]

Originally Posted by rosa surf

, I loooove Oaxaca. So much culture there.

I would love to visit someday, it seems like a place with so much to offer. So much to see and do.

[Krokodill]

The idea of destroying Tenochtitlan to the ground and killing ALL Aztecs was not Cortez's idea.

Cortez, being a cultured man that had travelled all through Italy and Flanders as a professional soldier, student at the University of Salamanca and the bastard of an important man, admired Tenochtitlan over cities like Florence and Venice. He wanted to preserve Tenochtitlan.

But Cortez, as smart and cunning as he was, was completely dominated by the Malinche, he was called "the malinchin" by all tribes. The Malinche was a gift Cortez received as a tribute by a tribe near Veracruz, she was first the interpreter and then she was advisor and without her, Cortez would have never conquered the Aztecs.

The Malinchin (Marina) wanted all Aztecs dead and their city destroyed to the ground, so did the Cholulans and the more than 100 tribes forming the coalition against Aztecs.

There are no Aztecs since most were exterminated and died of hunger during the siege.

Cortez and Castille did not conquer Tenochtitlan, but the confederacy of more than 100 tribes and the technical help of Castillians. Cortez was defeated by Aztecs at the battle of Otumba and only a few survived. Many were sacrificed at the Teocali and there were no love lost for those monuments.

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by Krokodill

The idea of destroying Tenochtitlan to the ground and killing ALL Aztecs was not Cortez's idea.

Cortez, being a cultured man that had travelled all through Italy and Flanders as a professional soldier, student at the University of Salamanca and the bastard of an important man, admired Tenochtitlan over cities like Florence and Venice. He wanted to preserve Tenochtitlan.

But Cortez, as smart and cunning as he was, was completely dominated by the Malinche, he was called "the malinchin" by all tribes. The Malinche was a gift Cortez received as a tribute by a tribe near Veracruz, she was first the interpreter and then she was advisor and without her, Cortez would have never conquered the Aztecs.

The Malinchin (Marina) wanted all Aztecs dead and their city destroyed to the ground, so did the Cholulans and the more than 100 tribes forming the coalition against Aztecs.

There are no Aztecs since most were exterminated and died of hunger during the siege.

Cortez and Castille did not conquer Tenochtitlan, but the confederacy of more than 100 tribes and the technical help of Castillians. Cortez was defeated by Aztecs at the battle of Otumba and only a few survived. Many were sacrificed at the Teocali and there were no love lost for those monuments.

Cortés the Conquistador was a complicated person. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C...A9s#Early_life for a nice article on him, his life, his military & government adventures. There's no notation that he travelled through Italy & Flanders as a soldier - he left tutoring with an uncle-in-law in Latin - @ Salamanca U.? - where his parents hoped to train him for law - because he tired of it. He was apparently a sickly child. Nor was he, apparently, a bastard child.


He was wily - he took on & put off wives, mistresses, lovers, political patrons, like most people change hats. He also challenged the king of Spain, a fatal error. No, Malinche was part of the translating process for Cortés - the other part was a Franciscan priest who had been captured & learned Maya.


The Aztecs (Nahuatl speakers) are still around - the language is still spoken - by 1.5 million people in the mountains of central Mexico - per Wikipedia (along with other tribal languages in Mexico), & they're still counted in the Mexican census of languages. @ Tenochtitlan, the majority of the Aztec casualties were due to sickness, as I recall.


I'll probably look into his biography - but the coverage on the Conquistadores was v. one-sided - they were made out to either be angels or devils. I doubt that either one is an adequate explanation of the history of Spain in the Americas.

[UrbanLuis]

I don't know if they could rebuild Tenochitlan, but they keep finding cool stuff there. I remember hearing something recently and I remember a few years back they found this....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VROvX6GHjAQ

[Krokodill]

Cortez or Cortez's father was a bastard of a very important family, Monroy, I don't quite recall. He studied Law during two years at the University of Salamanca. He was cousin of Pizarro, a different personality. He fought with Fernandez de Cordoba, el Gran Capitan, in Italy.

Almost all Aztecs living in the city died of hunger during the siege, according to Bernal Diaz del Castillo. Those surviving were not inhabitants of Tenochtitlan that included a very large municipality.

Cortez was an extraordinary man of his times, no need to picture him as a devil or god. He had quarrels with the king that he solved with gold, as usual. He should be considered a personality in Mexico, since all his descendants, around 500, live there. I believe they are always changing the mounted statue of Cortez in D.F.

I find quite idiotic to demonize people or personalities of the past, once very common among criollos themselves to save their skin. Nobody demonizes, at least during the last century, the aztec culture, or Moctezuma or Cuahtemoc, that's childish.

Malinchin or Marina was the real conquistador, Aztecs called Cortez "el Malinchin" because they knew. Without Marina there would have been no conquest, since she saved his life several times (conspiracy of Cholula).

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by Krokodill

Cortez or Cortez's father was a bastard of a very important family, Monroy, I don't quite recall. He studied Law during two years at the University of Salamanca. He was cousin of Pizarro, a different personality. He fought with Fernandez de Cordoba, el Gran Capitan, in Italy.

...

Yah. See the same Wikipedia article I referenced above on Cortés:


"Cortés was born in 1485 in the town of Medellín, in modern-day Extremadura, Spain. His father, Martín Cortés de Monroy, born in 1449 to Rodrigo or Ruy Fernández de Monroy and his wife María Cortés, was an infantry captain of distinguished ancestry but slender means. Hernán's mother was Catalina Pizarro Altamirano.[2]


"Through his mother, Hernán was the second cousin once removed of Francisco Pizarro, who later conquered the Inca Empire of modern-day Peru (not to be confused with another Francisco Pizarro who joined Cortés to conquer the Aztecs), through her parents Diego Altamirano and wife and cousin Leonor Sánchez Pizarro Altamirano, first cousin of Pizarro's father.[2] Through his father, Hernán was a twice distant relative of Nicolás de Ovando, the third Governor of Hispaniola. His paternal grandfather was a son of Rodrigo de Monroy y Almaraz, 5th Lord of Monroy, and wife Mencía de Orellana y Carvajal.


"Hernán Cortés is described as a pale, sickly child by his biographer, chaplain, and friend Francisco López de Gómara. At the age of 14, Cortés was sent to study Latin under an uncle-in-law in Salamanca.[3]

"After two years, Cortés, tired of schooling, returned home to Medellín, much to the irritation of his parents, who had hoped to see him equipped for a profitable legal career. However, those two years at Salamanca, plus his long period of training and experience as a notary, first in Seville and later in Hispaniola, would give him a close acquaintance with the legal codes of Castile that helped him to justify his unauthorized conquest of Mexico.[4]


"At this point in his life, Cortés was described by Gómara as restless, haughty and mischievous.[4] This was probably a fair description of a 16-year-old boy who had returned home only to find himself frustrated by life in his small provincial town. By this time, news of the exciting discoveries of Christopher Columbus in the New World was streaming back to Spain.


"Early career in the New World

"Plans were made for Cortés to sail to the Americas with a family acquaintance and distant relative, Nicolás de Ovando, the newly appointed governor of Hispaniola (currently Haiti and the Dominican Republic), but an injury he sustained while hurriedly escaping from the bedroom of a married woman[citation needed] from Medellín prevented him from making the journey. Instead, he spent the next year wandering the country, probably spending most of his time in the heady atmosphere of Spain's southern ports of Cadiz, Palos, Sanlucar, and Seville, listening to the tales of those returning from the Indies, who told of discovery and conquest, gold, Indians, and strange unknown lands.[citation needed] He finally left for Hispaniola in 1504 where he became a colonist.[5]"


(My emphasis - more @ the URL)


So @ age 19 or so, Cortés arrives in the New World. No mention of bastardy on anybody's part, no mention of time @ Salamanca University, no mention of studies for law (that was what his parents wanted, apparently - but it didn't happen), no mention of time as a soldier (prior to arriving in the New World). From what I see here, Cortés never set foot in Italy, let alone campaigned there.

[Krokodill]

I try to avoid Wikipedia.
Historia verdadera de la conquista de Nueva España by Bernal Diaz del Castillo is more reliable, my "libro de cabecera" during a long time.

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by Krokodill

I try to avoid Wikipedia.
Historia verdadera de la conquista de Nueva España by Bernal Diaz del Castillo is more reliable, my "libro de cabecera" during a long time.

Yah. I use Wikipedia as a first cut because it's handy - & covers a lot of ground. For instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal...z_del_Castillo


"Early life[edit]

"Bernal Díaz del Castillo* was born around 1492 to 1498 (the exact date is unknown) in Medina del Campo (Spain), he came from a poor family and received little education; however, he was literate, which indicates a certain level of education. He sailed to Tierra Firme (now Nombre de Dios in modern Panama)[2] with the expedition led by Pedrarias Dávila in 1514 to make his fortune, but after two years found few opportunities there. Many of the settlers had been sickened or killed by an epidemic, and there was political unrest."


...


"Conquest of Mexico[edit]

"In this third effort, Díaz took part in the campaigns against the Mexica, later called the Aztec Empire. By this time, he was a highly experienced member of Hernán Cortés's expedition. During this campaign, Díaz spoke frequently with his fellow soldiers about their experiences. These accounts, and especially Díaz's own experiences, served as the basis for the recollections that Bernal Díaz later told with great drama to visitors and, eventually, a book entitled Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España (English: The True History of the Conquest of New Spain). In the latter, Díaz describes many of the 119 battles in which he participated, culminating in the defeat of the Aztecs in 1521. This work also describes the diverse native peoples living in the territory renamed New Spain by the Spaniards. Bernal Díaz also examines the political rivalries of Spaniards, and gives accounts of the natives' human sacrifices, cannibalism and idolatry, which he witnessed first-hand, as well as the artistic, cultural, political and intellectual achievements of the Aztecs, including their palaces, market places and beautifully organized botanical and zoological gardens. His account of the Mexica along with that of Cortés are first-person accounts recording important aspects of Mesoamerican culture. Bernal Díaz's account has not been fully utilized as a source for conquest-era Mesoamerican culture.[2]"


(My emphasis - More @ the URL)


Our local library doesn't have the book, I'll keep an eye out for it. Díaz's education & his rise to encomendero & his self-interest are issues. I suppose that his account isn't used much as a source for Mesoamerican culture because that wasn't his interest - nor really his intent. But yah, I've heard of the book off & on. His ms. bounces around a lot, & is written partially as his justification for asking royal patronage, & to correct other accounts - thus the Historia verdadera. An interesting time, as cultures clashed in a physical way. His book was never published in his lifetime, apparently he didn't start seriously compiling it until a good 50 years after the fact.