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There are so many opinions on this issue, mine is probably not needed. The reality is opinions are not going to change until all of this violence has ceased. I don't really see that happening any time soon. Calderon has begun this fight against the drug cartels and corruption; it's going to be a long and bloody one.
I'll be the first to admit that things have become somewhat "sketchy" here in Baja California. I find myself taking extra precautions in my day to day living here. Precautions like ensuring my doors are locked when I go to sleep at night. Making sure my car is locked and nothing of value is left inside. Somewhat reminiscent of things I did when I lived in the U.S. and Canada.
I get so frustrated when I see comments about the dangers of traveling anywhere in Mexico, comments like Tourists will come home in body bags...that's simply not the reality. Of course tourists are victims of crime here just as they are everywhere in the world, but not all tourists who visit Mexico become victims of crime. Yes, things are more violent throughout this country than they have been in quite some time. Yes, there are dangers to be aware of. Again, just like any place in the world.
The bottom line is everyone living in Mexico, native or foreign, is concerned about the violence.
For now, I continue to hope for better times and better news for Mexico and its people.
Yup.
Those constant "put one toe into Mexico and you're going to die" type comments are soooooooooo silly.
Tourism is Mexico is a HUGE industry and millions of people travel there every year and have a great time with no problems whatsoever. Nearly 20 million Amricans visited Mexico in 2002 alone - and the numbers have grown since then. Furthermore, somewhere between 100,000 and 500,000 (depending on who's numbers you look at) Americans actually LIVE in Mexico and tens of thousands more travel there specifically for medical care they cannot afford here at home.
Are there places in Mexico that are unsafe?
Sure - but there are places in the US that are unsafe too - including parts of our nation's capital, not as many places as there are in Mexico, but definitely there are places here that are not very safe either. Does that mean someone should not visit the entire US?
Heck No.
Mexico is a huge country. Some parts are unsafe, some parts aren't. Anyone traveling there needs to use common sense - more so than in the US - but that doesn't mean that anyone who travels there is reckless and doomed...
comments like Tourists will come home in body bags...that's simply not the reality.
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Those constant "put one toe into Mexico and you're going to die" type comments are soooooooooo silly.
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... no matter what some posters here may say.
You're both taking my posts re traveling in Mexico out of context. I was emphasizing the point that there are places in Mexico where foreigners should not be seen or heard. The tourist industry is a large stream of revenue for the Mexican economy, as it is in the US or any other tourist oriented country. There are many tourists that think the safety of tourist locations like Acapulco, Cancun and Puerto Vallarta extend to all of Mexico. Many Mexican cities have their "free fire zone" areas that the police won't even enter. Visit Cuidad Juarez and try to find any law enforcement officers (Policia Local), you won't. In the many times that I was in Cuidad Juarez, I never saw one cop or patrol car. Unfortunately, many people that travel in Mexico do not have the required "common sense" to stay out of harm's way, those are the people that become the statistics and the news stories.
So, what areas of Mexico have you gentlemen traveled in and through?
Last edited by Steve Hazzard; 01-22-2008 at 08:17 PM..
Reason: Correct spelling
LordBalfor, BajaChaosSo, what areas of Mexico have you gentlemen traveled in and through?
Tijuana, Puerto Vallarta and surrounding area.
First trip (Tijuana) I thought Mexico was a hell hole. The very moment you step across the border it's clear "you're not in Kansas anymore" (so to speak).
Ended up with a case of Montezuma's Revenge big time. Not only did I think I was going to die - I WANTED TO.
Second trip (Puerto Vallarta and surrounding area) opened my eyes to the fact that Mexico is not a place that can be summed up quite so simply. Had a terrific time. The people were wonderful and we encountered lots of Americans and Canadians living there full time who loved the place. Still saw a bit of pretty ugly poverty (shanties) and ended up on a cab ride into an area that looked pretty darn scetchy at first to a dirt floor restaurant that looked like a dump outside but was absolutely beautiful inside. The food was OUTSTANDING (as was the service). Afterwards there was no cab and we ended up walking home. Though we passed through an area where the people were obvious rather poor, they were uniformly kind and gracious and we never felt the slightest bit threatened.
Loved everything about PV except for the extremely vicious sand fleas, noseeums or whatever they were - and the fact that the water was a bit chillier than we like (our favorite destination are various islands of the South Pacific that we've been too (Tahiti, Bora Bora, Moorea, Rarotonga, Aitutaki)).
After that experience I would gladly return to Mexico - though not everywhere. On our trip last summer down to Tucson (we own some land near Benson Arizona) we drove down to Nogales. One look across the border took me back to Tijuana and we decided to pass on Nogales (at least for that particular trip).
So, though I hardly consider myself to be an expert on Mexico, I'm a fairly seasoned traveler (spent half my childhood in Europe) and am wise enough to know that there is plenty of both good and bad throughout the world. Not enamoured with the Mexican border towns at all, but Mexico is more than just the border towns - and can be a great destination - with people that are warm and fun-loving. I think Mexico does indeed have it's fair share of problems (and then some) but I also think that there are some hopeful signs and that in the long run Mexico's future could be pretty bright - which could indirectly be good news for America.
I should also point out that two of my wife's sisters were/are married into an Hispanic families (one was American, non-immigrant, the other Mexican, legal immigrant) so I've a little first-hand experience with some of the idiosyncracies of Latino culture.
I agree that illegal immigration is a serious problem but my education as a historian and WW II buff causes me to see way too many similarities of things I see posted here and elsewhere to the propaganda literature I've read from pre-WW II Germany targeting the Jews - and I find that very disturbing. I agree with Arizona's new Immigration law targeting employers of illegal immigrants rather then attacking the immigrants directly and think that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are simply folks trying to find a decent job and provide for that families rather the bums, thieves, and rapists that they are often characterized here. Some indeed are touble-makers, but not most in my opinion and it bothers me that so many of my fellow Americans seem to be blindly skipping down that same road that led Germany into such a dark time.
I HOPE that Arizona's new law works out, but I have to admit I have my doubts about the disruption it may cause. To me, it will be a test case to see if that approach works. I certainly hope it does and do NOT want America to have to resort to acting like NAZI goons - rounding up women and children in the dead of the night. America already has enough PR problems without those kinds of images being broadcast around the world - because despite what some folks here may think - America's image matters. A poor image overseas hurts us in many, many ways - from international trade negoiations to individual sales of American goods.
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 01-22-2008 at 10:18 PM..
Ken, Gracias por una fijacion muy detallada e informativa! Thank for a very detailed and informative posting! I learned most of my Spanish in the border towns of Mexico. As an ex-trucker, I had the opportunity to visit the border towns from Tijuana to Matamoras, including Nogales! I was restricted by customs to the border towns so I couldn't venture further into Mexico even if I desired to do so. My only overseas experience was 18 months with the 4th Infantry Division in Viet-Nam during 1967-68. I was a Platoon Sargent in a rifle company. I had 3 Company Commanders in my tour of duty, all 3 were killed in combat.
Getting back to Mexico, IMO the real country and the people are in the border towns, particularly the more obscure towns like Rio Colorado, which is near Mexicali, and Piedras Negras which is north of Nuevo Laredo. I may be off on those spellings as it's been a number of years since my last visits. My initial visits to these border town were rather scary as I spoke little Spanish, but could read and write fair Spanish. Not speaking the native language really puts a foreigner at a major disadvantage in these small towns as you stand out like the proverbial "sore thumb"! Not so in the tourist and ex-pat areas where English is spoken and many people are bi-lingual. BTW, the number of American ex-pats estimated to live in Mexico full or part-time is closer to one million persons which bring a substation revenue stream of US Dollars into Mexico. I'm sure you know that in many locations in Mexico, USDollars and MXNPesos are freely exchanged and accepted for all purposes. The local prostitutes actually prefer payment in USDollars rather than MXNPesos. Been there, done that!
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I HOPE that Arizona's new law works out, but I have to admit I have my doubts about the disruption it may cause. To me, it will be a test case to see if that approach works. I certainly hope it does and do NOT want America to have to resort to acting like NAZI goons - rounding up women and children in the dead of the night. America already has enough PR problems without those kinds of images being broadcast around the world - because despite what some folks here may think - America's image matters. A poor image overseas hurts us in many, many ways - from international trade negoiations to individual sales of American goods.
I agree with your statement 100%. Unfortunately, the citizenry is becoming rowdy and loud and the worse the US economy becomes, the louder the calls for illegals to be singled out for retribution. IMO, we (the US) is being played like a cheap violin by the A-holes in Washington and Wall Street. These are the same tactics that were employed by Hitler prior to the WWII which were directed against the Poles, Russians and the Jews. This time around, it's the illegals, freeloaders and minorities. I've fallen for these economic assassination tactics myself, it's easy to dump on people that aren't in the "mainstream". IMO, this "economic crises" has been engineered for the very purposes of setting the classes and races against each other for the purpose of gaining unlimited power and control over the masses.
There will still be those who will tell you that Mexico is far safer than anywhere in the USA.
It depends where you go in Mexico, same thing in the U.S. I've seen your posts in the immigration section, it seems that you not only have problems with Mexico but with Mexicans as well.
There will still be those who will tell you that Mexico is far safer than anywhere in the USA.
We heard regular gunfire in our border town, had factions of cartel taking on US Border Patrol, and even uprisings that the US National Guard had to respond to when it took root across the river in the US. And this was all two years ago! But, NOT ONCE was my family in any danger. I feel so much safer there than I do in the US. It's almost something you have to live to know, I can understand why people in the US think I'm nuts, but I am literally terrified in my own home country, and the Third World seems safe to me.....
Murders aren't random in Mexico. They have pointed targets, for specific reasons. Not over a six pack and 20 bucks from the register....
If you get hanged from a tree and torched, chances are you screwed the WRONG person, and you won't EVER do it again! And it sends a relatively strong message to anyone else thinking they can get away with something similar. If you do right, keep to your own business, and stay away from drug rings and organized crime, life can happy and long lasting!
Murders aren't random in Mexico. They have pointed targets, for specific reasons. Not over a six pack and 20 bucks from the register....
If you get hanged from a tree and torched, chances are you screwed the WRONG person, and you won't EVER do it again! And it sends a relatively strong message to anyone else thinking they can get away with something similar. If you do right, keep to your own business, and stay away from drug rings and organized crime, life can happy and long lasting!
Excellent post! A six pack and 20 bucks, how about getting killed over displaying the the wrong colors or throwing the wrong signs in the wrong neighborhood! When I was in unfriendly areas of the US and the border towns of Mexico, I always kept my hands in my pockets and wore neutral colors, nothing that would attract the attention of the wrong persons.
Sadly, I have yet to make it to the mainland but within Baja California (planning my first trip this summer), I frequently explore Tijuana, Rosarito (I live here), Ensenada, Santo Tomas, Guerrero Negro, Bahia de los Angeles, La Bufadora, San Quintin, etc. I've been to some interesting areas in all of these locations, some obviously more safe than others, but my purpose is to get to know the people and their culture. I have been fortunate to befriend many people who live in what would be considered the "less desirable" areas and yes, they can be scary if you don't know what you're doing and don't pay attention. I'm not comfortable with staying in the "tourist zones", nor am I willing to reside in an area that is predominately gringo or gated.
I absolutely agree with you that anyone traveling anywhere in the world must do so with some degree of awareness, common sense and intelligence. I think those that don't travel in this manner should absolutely stay out of Mexico all together and perhaps never leave their home at all.
As for taking your comments out of context, I pointed to those comments because I hear and read the same comments so much and for what it's worth, I truly believe that the violence being reported is also being taken out of context. At least you and I can educate each other by clarifying our points. If only the media would do the same.
Let me tell you guys.. I've been going to Mexico for 17 years. staying there from 1 to 3 weeks almost twice every year. Never witnessed any serious crime what so ever.
My only overseas experience was 18 months with the 4th Infantry Division in Viet-Nam during 1967-68. I was a Platoon Sargent in a rifle company. I had 3 Company Commanders in my tour of duty, all 3 were killed in combat.
Well I salute you for your service. While I happen to think the Vietnam War was a colossal waste and should never have happened (Ho Chi Min need never have become an enemy to begin with) certainly that was no fault of the soldiers who were called to fight there. That was a failure of leadership by the various presidents - especially Eisenhower).
Never served in the military myself, but I was an Air Force Brat (hence the fact that half of my childhood was spent in Europe) and have the utmost respect for those who serve.
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Originally Posted by Steve Hazzard
BTW, the number of American ex-pats estimated to live in Mexico full or part-time is closer to one million persons
No, didn't know it was such a large number - though it doesn't really surprise me. I've even entertained the idea myself from time to time.
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Originally Posted by Steve Hazzard
I'm sure you know that in many locations in Mexico, USDollars and MXNPesos are freely exchanged and accepted for all purposes.
Yes indeed. We know some folks who own a timeshare in Cabo and from what I understand the US Dollar is far more common there than the Peso.
Ken
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You're taking my posts out of context.
These are the same tactics that were employed by Hitler prior to the WWII which were directed against the Poles, Russians and the Jews. This time around, it's the illegals, freeloaders and minorities. I've fallen for these economic assassination tactics myself, it's easy to dump on people that aren't in the "mainstream". IMO, this "economic crises" has been engineered for the very purposes of setting the classes and races against each other for the purpose of gaining unlimited power and control over the masses.
A six pack and 20 bucks, how about getting killed over displaying the the wrong colors or throwing the wrong signs in the wrong neighborhood! 
When I was in unfriendly areas of the US and the border towns of Mexico, I always kept my hands in my pockets and wore neutral colors, nothing that would attract the attention of the wrong persons. 
