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Old 02-26-2008, 04:57 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,163 posts, read 7,616,973 times
Reputation: 1388
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I live right on the border -- I can look out my window right now and see Mexico --
For a country with 32 states and 9 regions, I guess you are making a wrong judgement for what you see in the border.

Quote:
and all my neighbors are Mexican refugees. I see hard working people who say they could not get ahead in Mexico but they can here. Over 600 people dying every year speaks volumes. Sure some people living in places like the Zona Rosa live very very well -- and they don't see the people making the lonely trek through the hot desert -- their own fellow citizens -- and they don't care.
Of course we care, but what else can we do besides working hard, paying taxes, avoiding to give bribes and voting? it is very easy to critizice but so far you haven't proposed anything to remedy the situation.

Quote:
I realize that many leaving come here for the welfare offered here -- there is a lot of that here -- but it's also the hardest working people of Mexico leaving. And middle class who will come right out and say they couldn't not make an honest living there because of the corruption. And I know of families broken up -- wage earner in the USA -- and in my mind a remittance father isn't very good -- children need their fathers home helping to raise them -- of course the Mexican government wants the remittance money flowing in -- but what that does to families will harm your society forever.
I doubt much people from middle class go to the United States illegaly, the usual migrants are people who aren't extremely poor, but poor enough to be outside the middle class, I know this is terrible but again you critiicize a lot bro, what do you propose?

Quote:
I think it's shameful the way all prosperity comes to a screeching halt when you reach the Rio Grande (or Rio Bravo if you will) and that such a wealthy nation blessed with many natural resources offers so little to so many of it's people. And yes -- I also see the wealthy shoppers from Mexico in their brand new SUV's and expensive clothes.
You are giving a completely black and white picture of Mexico with no gray on it, I'm sorry but you need to know more to give a good opinion, otherwise you are just speaking of stereotypes here.

Quote:
Ignoring the problems isn't going to make them go away -- and there is no comparison because those boxcars sitting in scorching deserts aren't filled with Americans trying to escape their fate in their country. And it's not Americans dying in the sewers and canals trying to flee the USA.

The Mexican presidents can brag all day long about how well the well-off of Mexico are doing -- but here in the USA, we see the other side.
Ok, let's do some criticism of America now, but first let me tell you, if you lived in this country 30 years ago, you'd see how things have improved, rome wasn't erected on one day so it would be naive to think otherwise.

Now, Ignoring the problems isn't going to make them away, and what can you tell me of the thousands of Americans dying in a foreign country fighting a war whose only objective is to steal the oil of an innocent nation?

What about the thousands of iraq citizens who have been killed, maimed, tortured, raped and abused in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"

What about the American society being one of the most violent and racially divided in the world?

What about the school shootings, the growing paranoia, rising crime, murder and gangs in American cities?

What about the diseases of American society, where 60% of the population has overweight, because of the excesses of the American lifestyle?

What about corruption in the American government, that is leading the country to an economic meltdown, and is responsible of the unfair wars being fought as we speak?

and the list could be endless, so why instead of criticizing Mexico without offering any constructive solutions, don't try to clean up your own house first?

At least Mexico has never abused her power to subdue other countries, and we have a history of cooperation with foreign nations instead of trying to impose our will and vision of things to the rest of the world.

it is a shame that America such a wealthy nation blessed with many natural resources offers only a life of materialism, arrogance ignorance, and excesses to her citizens and immigrants (not all people is infliuenced by this mindset, but coming here I get the impression that the majority of people is)

so you have a lot of work to do before coming and speaking bad of Mexico, good luck!

Last edited by Travelling fella; 02-26-2008 at 05:08 AM..
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:25 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 33,792,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
For a country with 32 states and 9 regions, I guess you are making a wrong judgement for what you see in the border.
I've been all over Mexico -- and yes -- it's a beautiful rich land. Lots of history, lots of beautiful resorts, beaches, friendly people. I've been to the slums, I've been to Cancun, Mexico City, Guadalajara, Oaxaca, Chiapas, Los Mochis, -- many more places and yes I know Mexico is filled with lots of resources and wealth -- AND potential.

The irony -- an American living in the USA can have a wider variety of neighbors from Mexico than a Mexican living in some posh Mexico City neighborhood. My own next-door neighbors: a man from ciudad Chihuahua, a family from Zacatecas (half the population of Zacatecas lives in the USA) in the house next to them - brothers from Durango, on the other side, from Torreon. Where in Mexico would I find such a variety, such a wide cross-section?

Quote:
I doubt much people from middle class go to the United States illegaly, the usual migrants are people who aren't extremely poor, but poor enough to be outside the middle class, I know this is terrible but again you critiicize a lot bro, what do you propose?
A better life for them in their own country. I'm just saying I don't think there's any good excuse for the massive numbers of people fleeing. And I admit that many are looking for the welfare life here -- that's one thing -- but many are Mexico's best people, it's hardest workers and for that reason, I think as long as they are leaving by the millions, forget the future in Mexico -- it won't really get better until the Mexican government realizes that you don't really build a nation trying to get rid of your people.

I'm acknowledging that the crime problem is more due to the cultural disruption and instability of massive migration of people and the breakup of family and society than to the actual culture. Massive migration of people results from social injustice and instability but only results in more social injustice and instability.

It's hard to see that Mexican presidents are really trying to change that when they're constantly here involving themselves trying to find new homes for their fellow citizens. Instead of pretending to worry about how things are for the Mexican people in the USA -- they need to examine why they're leaving in such great numbers.

Quote:
You are giving a completely black and white picture of Mexico with no gray on it, I'm sorry but you need to know more to give a good opinion, otherwise you are just speaking of stereotypes here.

Ok, let's do some criticism of America now, but first let me tell you, if you lived in this country 30 years ago, you'd see how things have improved, rome wasn't erected on one day so it would be naive to think otherwise.
Yesterday another one of your citizens ended up critically injured here running across the border right into traffic. That always puts me in a certain more angry mood -- because it's just a non-stop tragedy, so many destroyed lives. Do all these people want to be true American? No -- it's fine for the ones who do -- but many really want to stay Mexican but have some kind of future -- and while we both know that in spite of Mexico being a very wealthy nation -- so many of it's people are giving up having their future there.

Speaking of that those neighbors from Durango -- talk about a hard working bunch -- Calderon really needs to understand the people potential that he is trying to get rid of from Mexico. But -- like one guy who called his family at Christmas only to have his daughter tell him after he told her he was sending money home "Papi, no quiero ver tu dinero, lo que quiero ver es tu." A family needs more than a monthly remittance wire.

Quote:
Now, Ignoring the problems isn't going to make them away, and what can you tell me of the thousands of Americans dying in a foreign country fighting a war whose only objective is to steal the oil of an innocent nation?

What about the thousands of iraq citizens who have been killed, maimed, tortured, raped and abused in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"

What about the American society being one of the most violent and racially divided in the world?

What about the school shootings, the growing paranoia, rising crime, murder and gangs in American cities?

What about the diseases of American society, where 60% of the population has overweight, because of the excesses of the American lifestyle?

What about corruption in the American government, that is leading the country to an economic meltdown, and is responsible of the unfair wars being fought as we speak?

and the list could be endless, so why instead of criticizing Mexico without offering any constructive solutions, don't try to clean up your own house first?

At least Mexico has never abused her power to subdue other countries, and we have a history of cooperation with foreign nations instead of trying to impose our will and vision of things to the rest of the world.

it is a shame that America such a wealthy nation blessed with many natural resources offers only a life of materialism, arrogance ignorance, and excesses to her citizens and immigrants (not all people is infliuenced by this mindset, but coming here I get the impression that the majority of people is)

so you have a lot of work to do before coming and speaking bad of Mexico, good luck!
As long as Americans are not making a big exodus out -- and your citizens are making the USA their destination -- it's hard to comment on all that. Hard to compare our military with that of Mexico which uses it's military to control it's own citizens -- as though that were the purpose of a military.

It would be nice if neither country felt a need to have a military. Not to use elsewhere, not to use at home -- but maybe that's not practical.

And I would like to travel about in Mexico like I used to do -- but 15 years ago and more Mexico really was relatively safe and one could hop on a bus and go most everywhere. It was a very pleasant country. Things have obviously changed. I don't want to have to fly into some protected luxury resort -- I liked traveling by bus or train -- with the everyday people and seeing the countryside, the mountains, the little villages.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:17 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,163 posts, read 7,616,973 times
Reputation: 1388
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
As long as Americans are not making a big exodus out -- and your citizens are making the USA their destination -- it's hard to comment on all that. Hard to compare our military with that of Mexico which uses it's military to control it's own citizens -- as though that were the purpose of a military.

It would be nice if neither country felt a need to have a military. Not to use elsewhere, not to use at home -- but maybe that's not practical.

And I would like to travel about in Mexico like I used to do -- but 15 years ago and more Mexico really was relatively safe and one could hop on a bus and go most everywhere. It was a very pleasant country. Things have obviously changed. I don't want to have to fly into some protected luxury resort -- I liked traveling by bus or train -- with the everyday people and seeing the countryside, the mountains, the little villages.
Yes it is true that massive numbers of Mexicans leave to the USA, but that doesn't mean the government isn't doing anything to improve the country, or that Mexico is becoming a ghost country, mexican emigrants account for one tenth of the population of this country, and as things get better that percentage will be reduced.

But come on man, there is danger in Mexico as everywhere else, but for sure you can travel around the country and you don't need to fly to a protected luxury resort, buses are perfectly safe, so is train abut I would recommend bus.

And about the miltary, sure it has been used against the population of this nation, but this was several years ago when there wasn't democracy in this country, but tell me in these days when has the army been used to attack the population?

And honestly there is immigration from Mexico to the USA, it's always been like this, so it wont end by decree or in one day, it is something that will be reduced slowly, there is also immigration from the USA to Mexico, so i guess it's only something natural that happens.

why do we have to prove that one country is better than the other one? think about it, they are just pieces of land, it is their citizens, the people who live there who make the spirit of the country, and there is good people and bad people everywhere in the world, also both Mexico and America have both, good, bad and ugly, but if you see the good things they are over her flaws, and make every country beautiful

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:52 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 33,792,412 times
Reputation: 21518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Yes it is true that massive numbers of Mexicans leave to the USA, but that doesn't mean the government isn't doing anything to improve the country, or that Mexico is becoming a ghost country, mexican emigrants account for one tenth of the population of this country, and as things get better that percentage will be reduced.

But come on man, there is danger in Mexico as everywhere else, but for sure you can travel around the country and you don't need to fly to a protected luxury resort, buses are perfectly safe, so is train abut I would recommend bus.

And about the miltary, sure it has been used against the population of this nation, but this was several years ago when there wasn't democracy in this country, but tell me in these days when has the army been used to attack the population?

And honestly there is immigration from Mexico to the USA, it's always been like this, so it wont end by decree or in one day, it is something that will be reduced slowly, there is also immigration from the USA to Mexico, so i guess it's only something natural that happens.

why do we have to prove that one country is better than the other one? think about it, they are just pieces of land, it is their citizens, the people who live there who make the spirit of the country, and there is good people and bad people everywhere in the world, also both Mexico and America have both, good, bad and ugly, but if you see the good things they are over her flaws, and make every country beautiful

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony

I know there are good people -- and bad people in both countries -- I just hope both countries' leaderships get their act together before it's too late.

I know it's partly because of the Mexico I'm now most in contact with is Ciudad Juarez and not Leon Guanajuato for example that my impressions are more negative and that my neighbors are those that left Mexico and never want to return to it. Yet at the same time they do -- they miss their country and it's good ways.
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:52 PM
 
1,214 posts, read 1,063,935 times
Reputation: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post

What about the thousands of iraq citizens who have been killed, maimed, tortured, raped and abused in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"

What about the American society being one of the most violent and racially divided in the world?

What about the school shootings, the growing paranoia, rising crime, murder and gangs in American cities?

What about the diseases of American society, where 60% of the population has overweight, because of the excesses of the American lifestyle?

What about corruption in the American government, that is leading the country to an economic meltdown, and is responsible of the unfair wars being fought as we speak?

At least Mexico has never abused her power to subdue other countries, and we have a history of cooperation with foreign nations instead of trying to impose our will and vision of things to the rest of the world.

it is a shame that America such a wealthy nation blessed with many natural resources offers only a life of materialism, arrogance ignorance, and excesses to her citizens and immigrants (not all people is infliuenced by this mindset, but coming here I get the impression that the majority of people is)

so you have a lot of work to do before coming and speaking bad of Mexico, good luck!
To make this short and to the point, the USA is the one country that the world looks to when there is a crisis...Because the USA is a just and caring nation.

And, as usual, when things get difficult, all of a sudden the world turns against it...And Iraq is a perfect example...

I remind you that Saddam gassed people, murdered critics, try starting World War III by invading Kuwait, firing missles into Israel, his soldiers used the Kuwait people as human shields, and he then tried to scorch the earth by setting the oil wells on fire...

When we first went into Iraq, the whole world supported us. The religious fanatics are the ones dragging the war on...And, now that it is a difficult situation, everyone suddenly turns against us...

Whenever there was a world crisis - World War I, World War II and Vietnam - we responded and our people sacrificed their lives. And, in the Vietnam situation, the world turned on us there also...And, how miserable have the lives of the Vietnamese been since then?...How come the Mexicans aren't migrating there to Vietnam?...Why aren't the critics of the USA migrating to Vietnam?...Look what happened in Cambodia (mass murder by the communists).

We don't all live our lives in excess - Some people do (like everywhere in the world). But, also we are the first in line to give help and support in any world crisis.

And, what countries are we occupying?...Where-ever we are, we are there because those countries want the protection of our military.

When Iraq is stabalized we will leave...What would happen there if we suddenly pulled out?...Probably the same that happened in Cambodia (mass murders)....And the murders, rapes and other crimes in Iraq are all done by Islamic extemists (religious nuts and mindless terrorists).

And as far as being racially segregated - That's the fault of the people that are segregating themselves - Everyone has the same opportunity in this country - There are rich and middle class of all colors and national backgrounds - All they have to do is study in school (study economically valuable subjects like math and science, not the nonsense subjects), wake up every morning and go to work, and act professionally on the job.

You spout the usual nonsense. Yet, at the same time, your own people are doing everything and anything to get into this country. And, when they are here, they are overall treated decently - apparently more decent then they are treated in your own country. 99% of the illegals here go about their lives without any problems here - They shop in the malls freely, they work freely and no one bothers them even though we know they are breaking our laws by being here. And, we can survive quite well without them, we could quickly replace them with other people and machines.

The only time they are botheres by the police is when they break the laws - LIke the murderous M13 gangs, drunk drivers, and all the other law breakers...But, as I said 99% live here without incident.

And, how about the great macho Latino drug gangs? Like these M13 creeps who butchered 2 children this past week, to show how macho they are?

And you make an issue that people are overweight here?...Big deal!...They're not spreading TB, or any other diseases to anyone, nor harming anyone by getting drunk and driving... I've got news for you, these "fat Americans" are the first in line to help anyone that needs help...And they reach in their pockets to donate money to people in need...all over the world.
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Old 03-08-2008, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Missouri
5,816 posts, read 14,340,175 times
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Please keep this thread Mexico-specific, or it will have to be closed. Thank you.
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Originally Fayetteville, Arkansas/ now Seattle, Washington!
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Mexico may not have abused its power ABROAD because perhaps it does not have much? Because locally they have abused their power. The police in Mexico are terribly corrupt. I have a friend whos father is a wealthy doctor, and he travels to mexico every year and volunteers to help build shelters for those less fortunate. He says not a trip goes by that police stop him, and say if he gives them money they will go away and not prosocute him on the fales reasons they have stopped him. America does have its crime problems. But think about TJ vs. San Diego. Which one are people scared to go to? You must realize George Bush is fighting a war for oil, not the american people. In recent polls, a very small portion of the population supports the war, including conservatives. People always talk about how bad America is in terms of violence, the war(which you must realize many of our innocent citizens were killed too, so it goes both ways, and which most Americans don't support), but people from the countries saying these things are dying trying to come here (like the previous example of Mexico). Also, much of America reports its violent crimes. If all the violent crime was reported for in Mexico, i bet it would be much higher than the U.S. You can say these things all day, but the U.S. is the worlds most powerful country, and with comes pros and cons. I am proud to say I am from here, and if i decided to move to a different country, Mexico would definatly not be on the list. Although Mexico does have some very nice beaches
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:38 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,163 posts, read 7,616,973 times
Reputation: 1388
Quote:
Originally Posted by The A-Team View Post
Mexico may not have abused its power ABROAD because perhaps it does not have much? Because locally they have abused their power. The police in Mexico are terribly corrupt. I have a friend whos father is a wealthy doctor, and he travels to mexico every year and volunteers to help build shelters for those less fortunate. He says not a trip goes by that police stop him, and say if he gives them money they will go away and not prosocute him on the fales reasons they have stopped him. America does have its crime problems. But think about TJ vs. San Diego. Which one are people scared to go to? You must realize George Bush is fighting a war for oil, not the american people. In recent polls, a very small portion of the population supports the war, including conservatives. People always talk about how bad America is in terms of violence, the war(which you must realize many of our innocent citizens were killed too, so it goes both ways, and which most Americans don't support), but people from the countries saying these things are dying trying to come here (like the previous example of Mexico). Also, much of America reports its violent crimes. If all the violent crime was reported for in Mexico, i bet it would be much higher than the U.S. You can say these things all day, but the U.S. is the worlds most powerful country, and with comes pros and cons. I am proud to say I am from here, and if i decided to move to a different country, Mexico would definatly not be on the list. Although Mexico does have some very nice beaches
I'm happy you like and feel proud of living in the USA. I just wanted to state that no country is perfect, and that Mexico is not as bad as some people paint it here.

in my case, I like Mexico and I've seen a lot of the world, several countries including the USA, which is a country that deserves my admiration and respect in many things, but I'm pretty happy with my life in Mexico and I wouldn't change it, I'm a citizen of the world but I'm really happy to had been born and raised in Mexico, by a Mexican middle class family and I consider this a blessing.

So bear with me, nobody likes to see others speaking bad of the country where God put us, if it was true and honest constructive criticism ok, but most of the posts here are just sensational news, not the truth.

Mexico's not perfect, it has it's problems but it's far from being a bad place to live or a dangerous country, some of our people forsake their heritage on the pursuit of the American dream, but it's not the majority, a lot of Americans come to live here and not all come legally, so it's only natural, more mexicans go to the USA, because the USA has more people better off, but Mexico's great, it has great people, great landscapes, nice cities, natural resources, we are a peaceful nation which has few problems with the world community, the economy is the strongest of latin america together with Brazil, and this is a democratic tolerant country, there is corruption though, but there is also less rules and regulations so you feel more relaxed, for some people this is freedom and we enjoy it

Last edited by Travelling fella; 03-09-2008 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
92 posts, read 138,156 times
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The middle class, what there is of it in mexico, lives a lifestyle very similar to that experienced in the states. However, because wealth is so concentrated in mexico, and because of the political corruption, a very small percentage can enjoy the middle class benefits. Until the mexican people can rid their political system of the systemic corruption, they will not enjoy all the wealth that mexico can provide. Mexico would like to ship all of their problems north, since they are not willing to assist their own people.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:49 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,163 posts, read 7,616,973 times
Reputation: 1388
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Originally Posted by duke1946 View Post
The middle class, what there is of it in mexico, lives a lifestyle very similar to that experienced in the states. However, because wealth is so concentrated in mexico, and because of the political corruption, a very small percentage can enjoy the middle class benefits. Until the mexican people can rid their political system of the systemic corruption, they will not enjoy all the wealth that mexico can provide. Mexico would like to ship all of their problems north, since they are not willing to assist their own people.
Everything it's coming on it's own, the middle class is not small, it accounts for more than 40% of the population, and it's getting bigger.

There will never be a perfect country, but this one is improving, and we are caring about our future instead about worrying about other countries future.
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