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Old 07-17-2009, 01:57 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,294,821 times
Reputation: 1423

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Ok, I'm in India right now (will post some pictures when I get back to Mexico) and after being here, now I understood why, Mexico is considered a middle income country and also the 12th strongest economy of the world.

We Mexicans looooooove to complain how poor we are, how bad things are here, (government, corruption, unequality, etc) some people reject what we are and would love if we were like the Americans are, the more I travelled around the world, the sillier all this became to me, but so far I had only travelled around North America, Europe and South America, I had never been in a country like India before and now I know what's poverty.

After being in this country, which has some awesome things like any other country, for example a very spiritual culture, a very deep and insightful way of thinking, an awesome natural beauty, and an inventive and resourceful nature among it's citizens, I also saw real extreme poverty, not the kind we are accustomed to see in Mexico, and then I realized how good we have it at our country, all people who complains about how bad we have it should go to India or even poorer countries to see for themselves, and then they will thank God for being born in Mexico for the rest of their lifes.

Be prepared to see some shocking pictures soon, I will post also pictures of Mexico for comparative purposes.

Now I will say that obviously, if we compare ourselves with our northern neighboors, the richest and most powerful nation on earth, it's obvious that we'll see a difference, but keep in mind that this is an unfair comparision, it's like comparing the wage or wealth of an american middle class citizen, with that of Bill Gates!! (Mexico being the american middle class citizen, and American being bill gates)

Not because of the huge amount of money that Bill Gates generates per second, means that the middle class citizen is poor, it just means that he is on a normal level of prosperity and not on an special level that very few countries in the world possess.

Yes there is poverty in Mexico, and that's a problem but you can't compare the poverty of Mexico with the poverty of India, or even poorer nations, if Mexico was India's neighboor instead of America's neighboor, guess who'd be the country flooded with illegal immigrants.

So now I can honestly say that Mexico, as well as Brazil, are ranked among the top 20 countries to live in the world, we might not be Sweden, Canada, Australia, Japan or the USA (yet) but we aren't that far from Spain, another nation I recently visited and which is considered solid first world, to be sincere I found Spain to be like Mexico, but with slightly less poverty (not that less because illegal immigrants are really poor there) and with illegal immigrants, give 30 more years to this country and it will resemble the Spain of today.

As a conclusion I would like to say that I hope that we the people of Mexico would be more thankful of what we have, and what we are, instead of living in completely self denial and keep complaining about how poor or underdeveloped we are, it is obvious that China and India can have GDP growth rates of 11% and 7% yearly because their income is less than a quarter of Mexico, wait until they reach our level and we'll see if they still can grow that fast, so we Mexicans should stop wishing we were the USA or part of USA and start being grateful for what we have, and proud of our achievements, we are already a democratic nation, with freedom of speech, a strong economy, good living standards (compared to all the nations that exist in the world)

Viva Mexico por siempre.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:39 AM
 
136 posts, read 259,179 times
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Travelling fella: "I will say that obviously, if we compare ourselves with our northern neighboors, the richest and most powerful nation on earth..."

I hear that catch-phrase all the time, but it's all being erased by Obama.

We have plenty of poverty here, it's just that our poor "look" more affluent incomparison to this who live on the edges of garbage dumps, or squat in the shanty towns of Mumbai or Rio.

America is now becoming just another bankrupt third-world Balkanized country. I am retired and on a fixed retirement income, and last year I saw things here getting so bad I wanted (still do) to migrate to Mexico. Just my luck, all hell broke loose in Mexico with murders, drugs, cartels, gangs, kidnappings and corrupt officials. Mexico is now out of my list, but I still want to go somewhere and be able to eat, clothe myself and otherwise survive on my fixed income.

Some may be thinking "what's this guy, who is proclaiming his poverty, doing with a computer and an internet connection?" Well, my entire computer was donated to me, free, piece by piece, and I have a free WIFI connection where I reside.

You are right about slums in India, but you should see the slums in our larger cities! Some look like Berlin at the very end of WWII.
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Old 07-17-2009, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Vermont
1,475 posts, read 3,587,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmweatherman View Post

America is now becoming just another bankrupt third-world Balkanized country. I am retired and on a fixed retirement income, and last year I saw things here getting so bad I wanted (still do) to migrate to Mexico. Just my luck, all hell broke loose in Mexico with murders, drugs, cartels, gangs, kidnappings and corrupt officials. Mexico is now out of my list, but I still want to go somewhere and be able to eat, clothe myself and otherwise survive on my fixed income.

Some may be thinking "what's this guy, who is proclaiming his poverty, doing with a computer and an internet connection?" Well, my entire computer was donated to me, free, piece by piece, and I have a free WIFI connection where I reside.

You are right about slums in India, but you should see the slums in our larger cities! Some look like Berlin at the very end of WWII.
There is almost no real poverty in America. We have people living in dangerous areas yes, but at least most of them are indoors with plumbing and heat. If you don't have air conditioning and heat, and are in trouble, someone will come and get you and take you to a safe place. You won't starve to death in this country, unless you try to, and you can always find a bed. If you're dying in the street here, someone will call 911 and you will get at least life preserving care at a hospital. You can always find a soup kitchen and shelter to eat and sleep in. Yes this sounds like a bad life, but there are countries in the world where people die on the side of the road due to starvation or medical problems. People who have to sleep outside. We have people here who sleep in the streets, but that is their choice. No this isn't the type of life we would like, but the countries with true poverty don't have these things. I think this is what the poster was referring to about India and places like Africa.. You can literally just sit down and die with people walking past you. Not that they don't care, it's just that there isn't anything they can do.

Fifteen percent of the world has indoor heating, indoor plumbing and a car. In the US we don't know anything about real poverty. Every American should go to India and Africa, it would be real wake-up call.

Last edited by quickdraw; 07-17-2009 at 07:42 AM..
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:16 AM
 
972 posts, read 3,493,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post

As a conclusion I would like to say that I hope that we the people of Mexico would be more thankful of what we have, and what we are, instead of living in completely self denial and keep complaining about how poor or underdeveloped we are, it is obvious that China and India can have GDP growth rates of 11% and 7% yearly because their income is less than a quarter of Mexico, wait until they reach our level and we'll see if they still can grow that fast, so we Mexicans should stop wishing we were the USA or part of USA and start being grateful for what we have, and proud of our achievements, we are already a democratic nation, with freedom of speech, a strong economy, good living standards (compared to all the nations that exist in the world)

Viva Mexico por siempre.
I like your love for Mexico TF. But the reality is different.

Let me give you another perspective:

In the decade from 1960 to 1970 Mexico was a country richer than Spain and Korea. Now these countries has exceeded by a wide margin.

Now we are in equal circumstances with Brazil, India and China but in a few more years we will overcome by them, as did Spain and Korea for years.

There is no question of complaining to do so, the matter is that the country has never lived up to what is required, nor will be, that Mexicans have the particularity of being individualistic, always look for the property before the common good and while this does not change, the country will move forward, but at a snail's pace.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:11 PM
 
549 posts, read 1,499,584 times
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Mexico is a developing nation. They have vast oil reserves, excellent tourist destinations, infrastructure, paradisiac beaches, and Mexico is part of North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

That country has tons of multinational corporations and I think they have Walmart over there...not sure.

They have all the necessary tools to become a developed nation in the future.

They have to do something about the horrible air pollution in the capital.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
1,164 posts, read 1,276,707 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo983 View Post
Mexico is a developing nation. They have vast oil reserves, excellent tourist destinations, infrastructure, paradisiac beaches, and Mexico is part of North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

That country has tons of multinational corporations and I think they have Walmart over there...not sure.

They have all the necessary tools to become a developed nation in the future.

They have to do something about the horrible air pollution in the capital.
They do have Walmart over there as well as Costco, SEARS, JC Penny, Burger King, McDonalds, Dominos, etc (though I've only seen those in cities).
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:05 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Interesting post, T Fella....and sounds a little like what I wrote on this forum a year or more ago, in regard to Mexican illegal immigration to the US, when I stated that "If Mexico woke up tomorrow, and found that instead of bordering on the US, it bordered on India or Pakistan, it would have two choices...either it would begin to include its own poor into its economy, and give them a share of its considerable wealth...OR it woud descend into angry, violent revolotion, because it's 'illegal emigration' safety valve would no longer exist".

Sounds a little like your post...except that you've hinted at a THIRD possibility...that if Mexico, a 'relatively poor' country, was next to a TRULY poor country,(or a truly repressive one), perhaps those who now feel they must emigrate to the US because they're "poor", would simply no longer FEEL so poor, and the 'illegal emigrant' question would cease to exist.

As always, you make an interesting obsevation..a lot has to do with 'relativity'.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:27 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,294,821 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by el_inombrable View Post
I like your love for Mexico TF. But the reality is different.

Let me give you another perspective:

In the decade from 1960 to 1970 Mexico was a country richer than Spain and Korea. Now these countries has exceeded by a wide margin.

Now we are in equal circumstances with Brazil, India and China but in a few more years we will overcome by them, as did Spain and Korea for years.

There is no question of complaining to do so, the matter is that the country has never lived up to what is required, nor will be, that Mexicans have the particularity of being individualistic, always look for the property before the common good and while this does not change, the country will move forward, but at a snail's pace.
My friend, have you been in Spain? Have you been in India? I just was in Spain, and I am in India right now.

Spain is not that ahead of Mexico, it is in some things, but my impression about Spain was that it's like Mexico2 with a bit less poverty (for those who aren't illegal immigrants) and a much higher cost of living.

India?? come on India has one billion inhabitants, of these 300 live in extreme Indian poverty, comparing extreme mexican poverty with it is like comparing apples to oranges.

300 million inhabitants surviving with less than 50 cents of dollar a day!!! that's 3 times the population of Mexico, imagine one billion inhabitants, 65% of them poor (indian poverty) competing for jobs, and Americans believe Illegal immigration is a problem?

Poverty in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trust me, India is rising fast now but it will take centuries for them to reach the level of Mexico.

China? I haven't been in China, sure it has been growing 11% yearly, but do you know how much a Chinese low skilled labor worker makes? one third that a Mexican worker makes, and they work in subhumane conditions, sure there has been economic progress but at the cost of many lifes, in Mexico they exploit us yes, but you can't compare the abuses in Mexico with the abuses in China, and in Mexico we have democracy and freedom of speech.

Brazil? I lived in Brazil for 2 years, and I just came back from there the 24th of june after spending 3 months there... Well with Brazil you are right, Brazil had the same or slightly lower living standards than us some years ago, now they have surpassed us and they are raising fast, 2 Brazilian reals buy a dollar! 2.50 an Euro!!!

Yet Brazil's problem, as Mexico's problem is corruption, some parts of Brazil are 1st world, clean, organized, planned cities, with infrastructure that rivals the USA with highly educated populations and high living standards, but Brazil is a very big country, and you can find other regions of Brazil that are corrupt, chaotic, disorganized, unefficient, with bad and decaying infrastructure, a huge analphabet population.

Another problem that Brazil shares with Mexico, is that they have a middle class who lives pretty much in the same way that the Mexican middle class or even slightly better in the more prosperous and developed states, but Brazil is also full of favelas (ciudades perdidas) where there is no law, they live under the rule of the strongest, people there have to be careful with what they do, because if they anger the drug lords who control those favelas, they will instantly loose their life.

Brazilian government created special police forces, like the BOPE Batalhão de Operações Policiais Especiais - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to fight these drug lords, BOPE is an elite squadron that has to undergo under one of the hardest trainning in the world, even harder than the Israeli's army training, and they are a death squad, when BOPE enters into the favelas, people is going to die, you think the drug war we have in Mexico is bad? you haven't seen how things are in Brazil, pretty much the same thing.

Yet I will say that Brazil has done things that Mexico needs to do, their fiscal system is very efficient, if they did in Mexico what they did in Brazil, we would solve instantly fiscal evasion, they already privatized their oil industry and it's thriving, and also Brazil produces etanol and you can find it in any gas station in the country, most people uses etanol instead of gasoline here, being the first country that has a really alternative fuel industry that works.

Also, Brazil instead of going the Nafta way has protected it's industry, imports are veeeeery expensive in Brazil, this has the disadvantage that technology that isn't made in Brazil is very expensive and hard to get, whereas in Mexico is exactly the opposite, but Brazil industry hasn't been wiped out by foreign competition.

If Brazil continues like this, it will be one of the world leaders, Brazil is respected and heard, because it is a peaceful country opposed to USA, Russia or China.

If more people went outside Mexico, and saw how things really are out there, their perception of our country would change forever.

Regards.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:51 AM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 12,696,306 times
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I've done a bit of traveling myself, and the poverty in Mexico does not even come close to the poverty I've seen in W. Africa, portions C. and S. America. Every time I have traveled in Mexico, C. and/or S. America, I have been treated very well by the populace who, by in large, made me feel quite welcome. Oh yeah, I really like the food as well, Veracruz is wonderful. When in country, I don't go there to hang out with other gringos, I can do that when in the states, ergo I avoid the mexican tourist traps, Acapulco, Cancun, et al.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:55 AM
 
972 posts, read 3,493,907 times
Reputation: 449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
My friend, have you been in Spain? Have you been in India? I just was in Spain, and I am in India right now.

Spain is not that ahead of Mexico, it is in some things, but my impression about Spain was that it's like Mexico2 with a bit less poverty (for those who aren't illegal immigrants) and a much higher cost of living.

India?? come on India has one billion inhabitants, of these 300 live in extreme Indian poverty, comparing extreme mexican poverty with it is like comparing apples to oranges.

300 million inhabitants surviving with less than 50 cents of dollar a day!!! that's 3 times the population of Mexico, imagine one billion inhabitants, 65% of them poor (indian poverty) competing for jobs, and Americans believe Illegal immigration is a problem?

Poverty in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trust me, India is rising fast now but it will take centuries for them to reach the level of Mexico.

China? I haven't been in China, sure it has been growing 11% yearly, but do you know how much a Chinese low skilled labor worker makes? one third that a Mexican worker makes, and they work in subhumane conditions, sure there has been economic progress but at the cost of many lifes, in Mexico they exploit us yes, but you can't compare the abuses in Mexico with the abuses in China, and in Mexico we have democracy and freedom of speech.

Brazil? I lived in Brazil for 2 years, and I just came back from there the 24th of june after spending 3 months there... Well with Brazil you are right, Brazil had the same or slightly lower living standards than us some years ago, now they have surpassed us and they are raising fast, 2 Brazilian reals buy a dollar! 2.50 an Euro!!!

Yet Brazil's problem, as Mexico's problem is corruption, some parts of Brazil are 1st world, clean, organized, planned cities, with infrastructure that rivals the USA with highly educated populations and high living standards, but Brazil is a very big country, and you can find other regions of Brazil that are corrupt, chaotic, disorganized, unefficient, with bad and decaying infrastructure, a huge analphabet population.

Another problem that Brazil shares with Mexico, is that they have a middle class who lives pretty much in the same way that the Mexican middle class or even slightly better in the more prosperous and developed states, but Brazil is also full of favelas (ciudades perdidas) where there is no law, they live under the rule of the strongest, people there have to be careful with what they do, because if they anger the drug lords who control those favelas, they will instantly loose their life.

Brazilian government created special police forces, like the BOPE Batalhão de Operações Policiais Especiais - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to fight these drug lords, BOPE is an elite squadron that has to undergo under one of the hardest trainning in the world, even harder than the Israeli's army training, and they are a death squad, when BOPE enters into the favelas, people is going to die, you think the drug war we have in Mexico is bad? you haven't seen how things are in Brazil, pretty much the same thing.

Yet I will say that Brazil has done things that Mexico needs to do, their fiscal system is very efficient, if they did in Mexico what they did in Brazil, we would solve instantly fiscal evasion, they already privatized their oil industry and it's thriving, and also Brazil produces etanol and you can find it in any gas station in the country, most people uses etanol instead of gasoline here, being the first country that has a really alternative fuel industry that works.

Also, Brazil instead of going the Nafta way has protected it's industry, imports are veeeeery expensive in Brazil, this has the disadvantage that technology that isn't made in Brazil is very expensive and hard to get, whereas in Mexico is exactly the opposite, but Brazil industry hasn't been wiped out by foreign competition.

If Brazil continues like this, it will be one of the world leaders, Brazil is respected and heard, because it is a peaceful country opposed to USA, Russia or China.

If more people went outside Mexico, and saw how things really are out there, their perception of our country would change forever.

Regards.

I do not have to visit those countries to know their reality and that of us, there are statistics that are published often indicate that the competitiveness of Mexico is the worst in the world and that corruption is higher now than before.

Do not pretend to know much just assume that you have been to a country or another.

Must see this reality and that Mexico is not moving at the speed required.
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