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Old 03-21-2010, 11:37 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,883,543 times
Reputation: 21592

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Quote:
Originally Posted by el_inombrable View Post
When I said so? You´re the one that you mean the drug problem involving the whole country of Mexico, that is not telling the truth, you are a sophist.
I never said the drug problem involves the whole country of Mexico. I would never make that claim. It certainly involves a city like Juarez and Nuevo Laredo.

I also realize that not a single innocent American tourist has been targetted by the cartels, not even in Juarez. No American going over to do a typical tourist activity like shop or sightsee has been harmed.

The drug problem involves people involved in it but in Juarez there is a break down of law and order people say - much of the crime isn't about drug cartels at all.

I think the problem many in the US have is that they get tired of hearing the the US is to blame for all the problems and the high costs and problems caused by drug addiction here is overlooked.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 1,138,954 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Drug consumption continues rising and rising in the world despite drug prohibition, this is weird, if the war on drugs was really working, you'd expect a rise on it's price and less availability, which isn't happening, quite the opposite, drugs being illegal allows the ruthless dealers to go and sell them to underage teenagers in schools
I think this argument uses false logic to convey it's point. It's like saying, "Despite the heavy fight against slavery and human trafficking in Sudan, it's still rising, so this means the war against this is failing, so let's stop and legalize human trafficking and slavery." I don't think anyone on this thread can and will argue that the war on drugs has made significant headway in halting the consumption of drugs, at least in the short term, but there are many people who'd rather keep the war on drugs going until we do woin, than give in and blatantly allow heroine, cocaine and meth be sold on the streets. (Marijuana is ok, I really don't think it's a huge menace to society)

Fella, I have a little girl. I live in Puerto Rico, and as it is, it's hard enough for me to explain to her all the heroin addicts walking around the island. At least I can tell them they're "fuera de la ley" but I don't know how easy that'll be if it gets legalized. What will I say, "Oh they're just being crazy and having a good time." Maybe you have kids, maybe you don't... I don't know. But I can't imagine anyone with children possibly being a sincere advocate for the legalization of drugs...

And for the one who said, "Drugs are illegal, so the dealers market them on high school campuses"... well.... I went to high school in the United States and I can tell you that there was no shortages of irresponsible adults to buy us alcohol and cigarettes, both legal. It's bad enough the government allows those two, but having the government allow a whole array of drugs just spells disaster.

On a different note: Fella, don't you think you're getting a bit of a power trip? You've closed 3 threads for being "pointless" and "not going anywhere"... when in fact, that argument could be said of ANY of the threads on this forum. It's just a place to exchange ideas and express concerns. It seems like you close threads when they don't go the way of your beliefs, or when they are decidely anti-Mexifco. Next time you close a thread, re-consider your moderator abilities and the concerns and ideas of others.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 1,138,954 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post

I think the problem many in the US have is that they get tired of hearing the the US is to blame for all the problems and the high costs and problems caused by drug addiction here is overlooked.
Wow, I can't believe I'm reading this. There's few things on this whole forum that have made me angrier. Yes, Mexico and the U.S. are both responsible for this 'war', but Mexico is paying a cost that is ASTRONOMICALLY greater than the U.S. is paying for the war on drugs. Mexico and Mexicans understand that Mexico's government and it's society of corruption have created an environment ripe for narcos,... but...Mexico's people are carrying the majority of the burden for a war that's a 2 nation issue. There are NO cities that even come close to burdening the ills of this war like Juarez or Nuevo Laredo in the United States. There are no cities in the U.S. under quasi-permanent military occupation. There are no parts of the U.S. that are essentially inaccessible by the government forces.

Do you want a Mexican pity party for all the costs the U.S. is paying? Everything that the U.S. does in the war on drugs, Mexico does, and then some.

Get a grip on reality.

Last edited by joelaldo; 03-22-2010 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:37 PM
 
Location: NW Houston
1,150 posts, read 1,935,074 times
Reputation: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanPabloMagno1 View Post
Diver Todd, By no means would I want to discourage your loyalties to Fox news. From my point of view, most news has a conservative slant. In any event, I would want far greater variety than is provided by any single source. When you are actually in a situation that is considered newsworthy, you might find that none of the common sources seem to be reporting what you see before your eyes. I don't put full confidence in any news source. As I said, since we can't be everywhere, we are at the mercy of what news agencies want to tell us, and at the mercy of how they tell their views. If you are satisfied with single source, that's between you and your reality. I'm sure nothing I say will move you to lose your loyalty to Fox, and the demonstration of loyalty is admirable. But I would rather know what's actually happening.
What in the world gave you the idea that I was dedicated to a single news source? I agree with you totally about having multiple sources which is why one of my bookmarks is a list of the world's major newspapers.

What I did was challenge a totally unreferenced and unsupported allegation with a reference. When my reference was mocked and dismissed, I simply asked for anyone to show how the reference was not correct. No one has been able to debunk it based on fact.
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Old 03-22-2010, 09:28 PM
 
Location: NW Houston
1,150 posts, read 1,935,074 times
Reputation: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanPabloMagno1 View Post
Do you people have some problem with your reading comprehension skills? As I have outlined in previous posts:
I do not lambast the US.
I do not praise Mexico.

I can see that many of you have done no more than briefly scan a couple of lines of my posts and you have obviously missed the many unflattering things I have said about Mexico. I am not here to wave the flag of any nation. I am not here to indulge in any purely gratuitous offensive writing against the US.
The source of your being "misunderstood" lies in post #1, in which you did nothing but rant about all the problems in the U.S. Some of them about the U.S.:

"has a peculiar resistance in seeing how it is complicit in the very activities it finds so objectionable about Mexico and Mexicans"

"the most eager employer of illegal immigrants"

"the most eager consumer of the drugs"

"curious denial of Americans that they are partners in international crime"

"allows them to imagine that they walk on high moral ground, and that the problems of other nations, such as Mexico, are due to bad breeding, inadequate intelligence, and a failure to appreciate innate American superiority"

"that a nation can be so irretrievably divorced from reality"

"directly victimized by American delusions of saintly grandeur"

"people who must suffer the brutal results of America's self-righteous self-image"

"to demonize the populations of other nations"

"They go on to blame MacDonald's for making them obese, and they maintain that automobiles force them to drive. Guns force them to kill, and credit cards demand that they overspend."

And that is only 1/4th of the way through your post #1. The one and only thing you said negative about Mexico was "the militarization of Mexico has been a complete fracaso"

Sorry, but you cannot run through an A-Z list of all things wrong with America and Americans, then mention one thing negative about Mexico and claim objectivity and fairness. You have since pointed out many other problems with Mexico and been an equal opportunity critic but first impressions can be hard to overcome.

You then called for discussion and pre-emptively insulted any potential responders by saying they must "put aside your Jingoistic biases" and laid the pretext for discussion that any "reasonable" people would agree with you. Mind you, this was in post #1 before you had even received a response. Since then you have blatantly branded anyone who disagrees with you as uneducated or intellectually "feeble".

But what i resented most of all is your attributing of negative views and opinions (especially racism) to anyone who might have a position against illegal immigration. The fact that one might feel we need to create stronger barriers and deterrents to illegal immigration and to locate and deport those illegals already here does not mean one thinks that Mexico has problems "due to bad breeding, inadequate intelligence, and a failure to appreciate innate American superiority".

I see no point in trying to have a logical and reasonable discussion with someone so intolerant and insulting.
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:00 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,883,543 times
Reputation: 21592
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
Wow, I can't believe I'm reading this. There's few things on this whole forum that have made me angrier. Yes, Mexico and the U.S. are both responsible for this 'war', but Mexico is paying a cost that is ASTRONOMICALLY greater than the U.S. is paying for the war on drugs. Mexico and Mexicans understand that Mexico's government and it's society of corruption have created an environment ripe for narcos,... but...Mexico's people are carrying the majority of the burden for a war that's a 2 nation issue. There are NO cities that even come close to burdening the ills of this war like Juarez or Nuevo Laredo in the United States. There are no cities in the U.S. under quasi-permanent military occupation. There are no parts of the U.S. that are essentially inaccessible by the government forces.

Do you want a Mexican pity party for all the costs the U.S. is paying? Everything that the U.S. does in the war on drugs, Mexico does, and then some.

Get a grip on reality.
When billions of tons of drugs are crossing from Mexico into the USA, the USA is losing billions of dollars and Mexico is gaining billions of dollars.

Who helps the USA pay the extremely high costs of drug addiction? Who pays for the destroyed lives, the destroyed families, the destroyed careers of drug addiction?

The USA obviously pays - and pays an enormous amount. When a drug addict burglarizes a home or mugs some guy in the street, you don't think that isn't an enormous cost? Plus the costs of disease from IV drugs, hepatitis, HIV, tuberculosis. Expensive hospital stays for overdoses.

It's not the drug addicts strutting around like drug lords -- it's not drug addicts living high on the hog in opulent hotels and mansions. Look at the mess in some of our inner cities where drug use was very prevalent -- the USA has been paying the costs of drug use -- but now we're to pay for the problems it's caused the drug dealers too?

The USA has suffered - but in the end the drug trafficking did more damage to the people who sell the drugs than to the drug users.

Yes I realize Mexico is paying a price -- but it's isolated to the border region where the drug traffickers are -- most of Mexico is not involved.

Crime is not higher in much of Mexico than it is in much of the USA.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:12 AM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 1,138,954 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The USA obviously pays - and pays an enormous amount. When a drug addict burglarizes a home or mugs some guy in the street, you don't think that isn't an enormous cost? Plus the costs of disease from IV drugs, hepatitis, HIV, tuberculosis. Expensive hospital stays for overdoses.
Happens in Mexico too. And it's not isolated to the border cities. Last time I checked, the states of Sinaloa, Veracruz, Michoacan and Guerrero were not considered border states, but are still heavily affected by the drug war. And as far as expensive hospital stays: Mexico has universal healthcare for it's citizens, so as far as a social cost, it's higher in Mexico to treat an overdose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post

Crime is not higher in much of Mexico than it is in much of the USA.
That is debatable. From personal experience, in Mexico city I've been mugged several times. In Veracruz I had a close encounter with the zetas during a car accident. I've had several hit and runs and I've had my car broken into/stolen several times. Only when I had to get a police report for my stolen car did I report it to the police... the other times I figured it was no use to report it, and many people in Mexico think in a similar fashion.... so in a way, any official crime reports you see are a gross underestimate of reality.

Nevertheless, for those reading this that are not part of this forum: the touristy parts of Mexico are fine. You run very little risk when visiting and staying to the well-trodden paths. I travel to Mexico A LOT and drive throughout the country a lot and visit family in places that are probably no where close to the tourist spots.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:07 AM
 
972 posts, read 2,534,762 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
When billions of tons of drugs are crossing from Mexico into the USA, the USA is losing billions of dollars and Mexico is gaining billions of dollars.

Who helps the USA pay the extremely high costs of drug addiction? Who pays for the destroyed lives, the destroyed families, the destroyed careers of drug addiction?

The USA obviously pays - and pays an enormous amount. When a drug addict burglarizes a home or mugs some guy in the street, you don't think that isn't an enormous cost? Plus the costs of disease from IV drugs, hepatitis, HIV, tuberculosis. Expensive hospital stays for overdoses.

It's not the drug addicts strutting around like drug lords -- it's not drug addicts living high on the hog in opulent hotels and mansions. Look at the mess in some of our inner cities where drug use was very prevalent -- the USA has been paying the costs of drug use -- but now we're to pay for the problems it's caused the drug dealers too?

The USA has suffered - but in the end the drug trafficking did more damage to the people who sell the drugs than to the drug users.

Yes I realize Mexico is paying a price -- but it's isolated to the border region where the drug traffickers are -- most of Mexico is not involved.

Crime is not higher in much of Mexico than it is in much of the USA.

You speak as if all those who distribute drugs in USA are Mexican citizens. You parts of a false premise to try to prove your point.

That money does not help Mexico, now that 90% of the mexican banking system is in foreign hand we must check their contribution to money laundering.

In the USA does not wash money? Hell yes...

If you blame Mexico for let passing the drugs to USA, then you should also blame your country for accept it. Why so much technology and border patrols if the drugs still coming to your country?


If all the american border agents are honest, then how the drug enter to USA? in to invisible packets? Come on!
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Old 03-23-2010, 01:51 PM
 
4,359 posts, read 7,249,566 times
Reputation: 3741
Default More Cartel violence....

This did not happen in Juarez, but it could, given today's conditions. Sad.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:41 PM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,883,543 times
Reputation: 21592
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
That is debatable. From personal experience, in Mexico city I've been mugged several times. In Veracruz I had a close encounter with the zetas during a car accident. I've had several hit and runs and I've had my car broken into/stolen several times. Only when I had to get a police report for my stolen car did I report it to the police... the other times I figured it was no use to report it, and many people in Mexico think in a similar fashion.... so in a way, any official crime reports you see are a gross underestimate of reality.
For a city of it's size, Mexico City is not especially better or worse than other cities of comparable size. Muggings go on in all big cities, and certain parts of any big city might be bad while other parts are not.

Even in Juarez, much of the crime doesn't have to do with drug cartels at all, it seems that it's more about a break down of law and order, kids killing kids -- in part because Juarez went from being a small town to a very large city in such a sort time and massive migrations of people do not result in much stability. Many of the recent arrivals were not well equipped - many uprooted themselves from their traditional safety nets of friends and family, they left rural villages with almost nothing and the maquila wages may have sounded great but in reality the cost of living in Juarez makes the wages quite low. Plus Juarez lacked the infrastructure to grow as fast as it did, we saw years ago that many maquila workers were mothers of young children without day care or spouses to help raise their children with them. So surprise, now we hear of 15 year olds killing 16 or 17 year olds in gun battles.

I blame the maquilas more than drug addicts in the US for the problems of Juarez, it was the maquilas that caused the outrageously fast population growth and changed things so rapidly. The maquilas added to the instability and instant urbanization of Juarez.
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