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Old 07-28-2012, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,134,646 times
Reputation: 809

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
While in Miami Beach run it at grade so it looks more like a street car, thus cutting down on the aesthetic problems.

On Washington you would simply take out the metered parking on both sides of the street to make room for the Metromover lane. To address the new parking problem they could take out the median and turn it into parking spots.
As much as I like your ideas, I don't like the idea of an automated train running with cars.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:06 AM
 
3,849 posts, read 7,869,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricaneMan1992 View Post
What I was thinking is you'd use Culmer as the transfer station and have stops at Bicentennial Park/arena (NEEDED, if you've ever taken the Metromover to a Heat game...), 5th @ alton, alton @ 12th, Lincoln Rd west, Lincoln @ Collins. "Orange" line then runs directly from MIA to the Beach! Having 4 stops in the way wouldn't increase the travel time much. Metrorail averages around 2 minutes or so between stations which makes the trip ~10 minutes, but there is the three mile Causeway crossing which probably adds another 5 mins. or so.
I could see that, but I think you'd be better off making Civic Center the transfer stop and have Metrorail then follow the footprint of the Dolphin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricaneMan1992 View Post
Alton Rd. is not very attractive (or quiet) at this point in time (it's basically designed as a highway), so unless you're talking about an alignment right up Washington or Collins or Ocean Drive, aesthetics are a pretty moot point. Actually well-designed light rail systems can be attractive and charming with that "trolley" appearance, just look at San Francisco's system and many European cities. They're also more quiet than El trains and there's also noise dampening technology nowadays, but again, I don't think many people move to Alton Road in South Beach for peace and quiet... I think most of the political opposition is from a vocal minority of residents in areas where the train wouldn't even service: causeway islands, Belle Isle, Alton to Pinetree in Mid beach, ect.
The problem with any road, Alton, Washington, Collins, etc. is that nobody is going to want an elevated train going overhead, especially one that carries big trains like Metrorail. There'd be so much opposition it would be unbelievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyMIA View Post
You make good points but I don't see what would be wrong with having an elevated peopplemover at Miami Beach, it would not have to be the same lines as Miami so longer trains would be possible. It's quiet, and I am sure they could find someone to make it actually look good. Washington ave isn't anything special looks wise but it's location is great. The peoplemover goes up wards of 30mphs I am sure if they could make it cross with 395 it could get up to 40mph or so. Maybe it would be different cars who knows. The only way I see it is elevated like in downtown and a very quiet system like in downtown. Just take it down Washington to the convention center with stops here and there. But who knows, I'm not an engineer, maybes it's too late.


Something needs to happen with mass transit in Miami Beach/Miami the airport link is great but we NEED more!! Especially Miami Beach and SW8th street corridor. Maybe the FEC commuter rail will be good enough for Biscayne Blvd.
Again, the problem is nobody is going to want a big elevated train in front of them all of a sudden. Washington would be even worse to get it passed because the hotel lobby would be out there picketing for sure. Some hotel rooms face on Washington and to have some rooms all of a sudden have a giant mountain of concrete and passing trains isn't going to fly with them.

I guess the biggest issue is that there's going to be a lot of NIMBY's in MB protesting if it goes here or if it goes there. Whatever system is put in is going to have to get through a lot of scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
As much as I like your ideas, I don't like the idea of an automated train running with cars.
LOL! True, true.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Miami/ Washington DC
4,836 posts, read 10,164,061 times
Reputation: 2512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
I could see that, but I think you'd be better off making Civic Center the transfer stop and have Metrorail then follow the footprint of the Dolphin.




The problem with any road, Alton, Washington, Collins, etc. is that nobody is going to want an elevated train going overhead, especially one that carries big trains like Metrorail. There'd be so much opposition it would be unbelievable.



Again, the problem is nobody is going to want a big elevated train in front of them all of a sudden. Washington would be even worse to get it passed because the hotel lobby would be out there picketing for sure. Some hotel rooms face on Washington and to have some rooms all of a sudden have a giant mountain of concrete and passing trains isn't going to fly with them.

I guess the biggest issue is that there's going to be a lot of NIMBY's in MB protesting if it goes here or if it goes there. Whatever system is put in is going to have to get through a lot of scrutiny.



LOL! True, true.
Getting anything to pass in Miami Beach would be a huge monumental feat. I know there are a few hotels on Washingtom Ave but nothing I would be afraid of. There are no great views to begin with on Washington and there is really nothing special about that road. It would be a great location and in my odd personal view peoplemover, not rail but monorails going up and down washintong would look really really cool and improve the look of the area IMO.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:13 AM
 
3,849 posts, read 7,869,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyMIA View Post
Getting anything to pass in Miami Beach would be a huge monumental feat. I know there are a few hotels on Washingtom Ave but nothing I would be afraid of. There are no great views to begin with on Washington and there is really nothing special about that road. It would be a great location and in my odd personal view peoplemover, not rail but monorails going up and down washintong would look really really cool and improve the look of the area IMO.
True, dat!!

No, no great views, but they'll still put up a stink.

Another option that I've always been a fan of is PRT.

This is one of the better ones:
http://www.ultraglobalprt.com/how-it-works/

Cost is between $7-$15M per KM (.62 miles) so even at $15M, the previously outlined Metromover route would be a total cost of ~$180M ($15M per .62 miles, roughly 7.42 miles on the route, thus 11.97 KM, 11.97 KM * $15M = ~$180M)

The problem is the top speed is only 25 MPH, so to traverse the entire route would be 18 minutes; however, the non-stop service (touched on later) sort of makes up for that. Without traffic, Google claims you can drive from Bicentennial Park to Lincoln Road (via Washington) in 10 minutes, distance is 5.2 miles. On the PRT it would be 13 minutes, almost 100% guaranteed since you never have to worry about traffic.

Looking at the pro's:

It's a nonstop service. If you want to go from say Bicentennial Park to Lincoln Road, you would go without stopping at say 5th St, 7th St, 9th, etc. like a train would.

It's a "private" service in that you have your own personal pod to travel in. No more sharing space with others, thus making people feel safer.

It's on demand. You don't have to look at a schedule, worry if you're going to miss the train, get there early, etc. Touch the screen and your pod awaits to take you non-stop to the destination of your choice.

It's multilingual. The touch screen can be in multiple languages making it great for the diverse tourism base Miami has.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I think PRT is the way to go. Cheap, efficient, quiet, safe, comparable time to driving, etc. The only con is it's not a continuation of another system so somewhere along the line you have to transfer to it. It would probably be best to extend it into Government Center and use the ghost platform located on the 3rd floor that was supposed to be used for the East/West line, this way it's at least tied in easily to a major transfer point.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Miami/ Washington DC
4,836 posts, read 10,164,061 times
Reputation: 2512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1 View Post
True, dat!!

No, no great views, but they'll still put up a stink.

Another option that I've always been a fan of is PRT.

This is one of the better ones:
http://www.ultraglobalprt.com/how-it-works/

Cost is between $7-$15M per KM (.62 miles) so even at $15M, the previously outlined Metromover route would be a total cost of ~$180M ($15M per .62 miles, roughly 7.42 miles on the route, thus 11.97 KM, 11.97 KM * $15M = ~$180M)

The problem is the top speed is only 25 MPH, so to traverse the entire route would be 18 minutes; however, the non-stop service (touched on later) sort of makes up for that. Without traffic, Google claims you can drive from Bicentennial Park to Lincoln Road (via Washington) in 10 minutes, distance is 5.2 miles. On the PRT it would be 13 minutes, almost 100% guaranteed since you never have to worry about traffic.

Looking at the pro's:

It's a nonstop service. If you want to go from say Bicentennial Park to Lincoln Road, you would go without stopping at say 5th St, 7th St, 9th, etc. like a train would.

It's a "private" service in that you have your own personal pod to travel in. No more sharing space with others, thus making people feel safer.

It's on demand. You don't have to look at a schedule, worry if you're going to miss the train, get there early, etc. Touch the screen and your pod awaits to take you non-stop to the destination of your choice.

It's multilingual. The touch screen can be in multiple languages making it great for the diverse tourism base Miami has.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I think PRT is the way to go. Cheap, efficient, quiet, safe, comparable time to driving, etc. The only con is it's not a continuation of another system so somewhere along the line you have to transfer to it. It would probably be best to extend it into Government Center and use the ghost platform located on the 3rd floor that was supposed to be used for the East/West line, this way it's at least tied in easily to a major transfer point.
That is awesome. My only concern how many can be on the route at a time, how many passengers a day.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:49 PM
 
3,849 posts, read 7,869,648 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyMIA View Post
That is awesome. My only concern how many can be on the route at a time, how many passengers a day.
On the route doesn't really matter, it's like a road with perfect drivers. The pods are parked until somebody gets in, then they pull out and go on their way. I suppose it could get clogged if a lot of people are rushing it at one time, but I'm not sure of the specifics on that.

As for passengers, a place in India is getting this system and it's 4.97 miles long and has 240 pods. It says it can transport 100,000 passengers per day.

I'd imagine the Miami Beach one would be about double that (once you include getting it to Government Center) so it would have about double the pods, or maybe a little more- perhaps 600 pods, so maybe 200 to 250,000 passengers per day. The limitation I saw was simply on how many stations you have so the pods can dock.

The key would be determining ridership per station so it can be determined how many pod parking spots should be at each station. Obviously Government Center would have a lot (and it thankfully has the space with that ghost platform) as would big areas in Miami Beach. They would always want to make sure there are a few pods at every station so it is on demand for everyone and they don't have to wait for a pod to arrive for them.

I can definitely see them integrating an app with the system so you can essentially make a pod reservation for a specific time, know what bay it will be at and know it will be there waiting for you. They'd probably have to integrate some sort of locational device so it would know you're at the station and if you're not there say 2-3 minutes after your reservation, it releases the pod for anyone without a reservation.
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,975 posts, read 4,069,304 times
Reputation: 1208
It's amazing that you can get that much capacity out of PRT! It could be the kind of system that tourists ride just for the experience!

You'd have to estimate how many people on each Metrorail train transfer to the bus to South Beach (you've got easy card records), then double or triple it (it would be more popular than the bus) to estimate how many pods you need available at Govt. Center in a short period of time.

Since the system could be automated like Metromover, the labor/union costs would be much lower than an El or light rail solution.
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:30 PM
 
3,849 posts, read 7,869,648 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricaneMan1992 View Post
It's amazing that you can get that much capacity out of PRT! It could be the kind of system that tourists ride just for the experience!

You'd have to estimate how many people on each Metrorail train transfer to the bus to South Beach (you've got easy card records), then double or triple it (it would be more popular than the bus) to estimate how many pods you need available at Govt. Center in a short period of time.

Since the system could be automated like Metromover, the labor/union costs would be much lower than an El or light rail solution.
Not to mention the efficiency, better perception of personal safety, comfort, noise factor, and most of all, cost!! A PRT "lane" is only 7 feet wide, whereas a vehicle lane is usually about 12. In essence you can almost get a two way PRT system set up in the footprint of ONE lane of vehicular traffic!

Makes sense. Also take into account the Airport Flyer records.

RE: labor- yes!

I think if there was some way a resident of Miami-Dade could have a scanable "reduced fare" card, it could also be a revenue generator for MDT in terms of charging tourist a higher fare.

They could set up a fare system so any travel within Miami Beach is say $1 for non-residents, 50 cents for residents, and travel to and from the mainland out to the beach would be $2 for residents, and $3-4 for non-residents. A transfer from Metrorail would have to be taken into consideration, though. Perhaps free transfers between the two.

I'm glad to see others have taken interest in the PRT system. When I've posted about it before it was mostly a dud. LOL!

I personally think it's fabulous, especially in an application like Miami Beach where it's not possible to really cruise at 60, or 70 MPH like a car or heavy rail would in other areas. A passenger vehicle is pretty much going to be going to same speed, probably a little faster, but it subject to lights, stop signs, traffic, etc.
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:46 PM
 
Location: America
6,985 posts, read 15,461,616 times
Reputation: 2067
what about monorail?
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:49 PM
 
3,849 posts, read 7,869,648 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
what about monorail?
I think it would depend on the cost.

I personally feel that something should either A) tie into the current system (like Metromover) or B) be so cheap that it justifies the extra transfers people have to make (PRT)
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