Coconut Grove Waterfront

[manny118]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

As a fellow Grovite, I have to disagree with you on a few points.

They are going to develop West Grand with shops, condos, apartments and businesses very soon (google Grand Avenue Master Plan). Technically speaking, that would compete with Center Grove and so would the waterfront plan. That is, if the powers that be allowed businesses to develop willy nilly in the Grove. However, if they have smart growth, then there should be no problem. You can have businesses that complement each other and even create districts within the Grove. One area for restaurants etc., another maybe for retail, another for some other sorts of businesses etc. It doesn't have to be a issue of developing one part of the Grove at the expense of the other, again it has to be done intelligently. Just look at South Beach for a good example. I believe you have to have diversity in terms of the businesses in a given area. How many restaurants and bars does one area need? It starts to become cannibalistic after awhile.

I agree with HurricaneMan whole heartedly. Develop your main corridors into the Grove i.e. Main, Grand, 27th and Biscayne. Make them tree lined, pedestrian friendly and include mass transit. I just read that they have developed a street car that doesn't need overhead wires. I am all for having a line that goes down Biscayne, continues to Grand and moves into the Gables, and loops north to Little Havana, maybe even pick up South Miami.

If you ever go to Europe (assuming you have not), look at how their villages are setup. They are self contained, you have everything you need in a village i.e. butcher, bread shop, dry cleaner and every other service you need in that one area. Right now, in the Grove if I want to get to a Publix, I have to get in my car, I want to go by electronics, I need to get in my car, want a video game, get in my car. This is a unsustainable model, and one that we can address very easily. We have many areas in the grove that can accommodate these sorts of businesses, and very easily. Now as far as traffic goes, if they built a proper mass transit system, and decreased the amount of parking, people would be forced to take the mass transit into the Grove, again something I am all for.

As far as what residents want. I have to disagree with you as far as them not wanting mass transit in here. A lot of people are clamoring for DDA to extend the Trolly that runs through downtown to come to the Grove. So if a good quality street car were proposed or even metromover extension, I can't imagine anyone would not want that. It would only increase property values as more people seek out urbanized areas, with access to good mass transit. We will see more and more of that with high gas prices. As I said before, I would MUCH rather see mass transit here, over tons of cars clogging up the streets and honking etc. It gets a bit excessive sometimes, if you live off of one of the main arteries leading into the grove.

I agree that development of the West Grove would increase competition for the existing businesses but the West Grove is at least contiguous with the existing commercial area so pedestrian traffic would flow between both areas. There isn't a lot of distance between the 27th Ave corridor and the Center Grove but they are separated by residential buildings and office buildings which would restrict the flow of pedestrian traffic between the two areas. New Yorkers may walk much further but New York also has much more of a continuous stream of commercial activity which keeps the pedestrian traffic going. I think the best development for the 27th Ave corridor would be newer condo and townhouses rather than commercial buildings.

I think it's hard to compare the Grove with Miami Beach as Miami Beach is much more urban and zoned more for commercial activity than the Grove. For the Grove to have two commercial centers would require a lot of change to the existing neighborhood.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by manny118

I agree that development of the West Grove would increase competition for the existing businesses but the West Grove is at least contiguous with the existing commercial area so pedestrian traffic would flow between both areas. There isn't a lot of distance between the 27th Ave corridor and the Center Grove but they are separated by residential buildings and office buildings which would restrict the flow of pedestrian traffic between the two areas. New Yorkers may walk much further but New York also has much more of a continuous stream of commercial activity which keeps the pedestrian traffic going. I think the best development for the 27th Ave corridor would be newer condo and townhouses rather than commercial buildings.

I think it's hard to compare the Grove with Miami Beach as Miami Beach is much more urban and zoned more for commercial activity than the Grove. For the Grove to have two commercial centers would require a lot of change to the existing neighborhood.

I think you have NYC confused. There are areas that are distinctly residential and you may have to walk a bit of a ways to get to the businesses you need to reach, yet people do it all the time, without issue. This is just one example, but I can give you hundreds of similar examples in NYC. I am from Brooklyn and I assure you, living say on Lefferts Avenue and Empire Blvd is a lot different from living on Lefferts and nostrand ave. In one instance you have shops right at your front door and the other instance you have to walk a bit. People walk it all the time, there is nothing restricting people, there are sidewalks all along the area. Office buildings and condos do not preclude people from walking anywhere. I am not sure where you are coming from with that instance. As for 27th, I think mix use would be best. businesses on the first floor and apartment/condos above. Which by the way, is what west grove will be developed as according to the Grand Ave master plan. There is a restaurant district which is that area near commodore, there is the corporate district in the mayfair area and 27th could be anything from small store fronts like a bodega, consignment shops, small electronic shops or whatever else the community needs. West Grove could be for small mom and pop shops. There are a number of things that can be done in each area that would bring certain types of businesses in. The areas should be unique i.e. different type of businesses to serve the community but unique enough not to detract from other parts of the Grove. as I said you see that in NYC, Chicago and every other major city I have lived in or had the pleasure of visiting. But we can agree to disagree.

[hurricaneMan1992]

I agree mixed use would be best approach. Much better than "lifestyle center" mall development which encourages people to drive from far away and park in a massive garage. In keeping with Miami-21, these should not be luxury high rises with ground floor retail. Think in terms of a row of small businesses with urban townhouses and low-mid rise condos behind them, put in some work-live condos too.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by hurricaneMan1992

I agree mixed use would be best approach. Much better than "lifestyle center" mall development which encourages people to drive from far away and park in a massive garage. In keeping with Miami-21, these should not be luxury high rises with ground floor retail. Think in terms of a row of small businesses with urban townhouses and low-mid rise condos behind them, put in some work-live condos too.

that is EXACTLY what they are going to be doing in west grove along Grand and what I propose they do on 27th. Though 27th may require they build ground floor with condos on top (doesn't have to be luxury, but something for the average joe). Only reason I say that is, they are buying up blocks north and south of Grand. I don't know that they could buy up blocks east and west of 27th affordably.