01-27-2014, 01:17 AM
2,886 posts, read
5,807,232 times
Reputation: 1885
At first I saw nothing out of the ordinary about the historic preservation designation until I read several articles in the New Times and discovered that there are other unscrupulous reasons why certain well connected people want the church preserved. The Miami City Commissioners voted 4-0 in favor of it despite the church leaders and parishioners opposition and the building being only 66 years old. I have always felt that historic designations are a double edge sword. They do help preserve history and places of significance but it is a power that is too often abused of. In reality the church is being preserved so developers can get the churches air rights and build a 60 story building next to it which the land is currently not zoned for. Is that preservation? Is that fair to the churches property owners or any other property owners that might be faced with a similar situation? In my opinion this is an abuse of powers and I hope the court sides with the church. I wonder what stories and excuses are the people against the church going to make up once they meet their maker.
St. Jude's Historic Preservation Vote Could Be a Smokescreen for Developers - Page 1 - News - Miami - Miami New Times
St. Jude Church's Historic Preservation Could Be Worth Millions to Brickell Developers
St. Jude Church Declared Historic by City Commission, Church Leaders Vow to Appeal
01-13-2015, 03:28 AM
2,886 posts, read
5,807,232 times
Reputation: 1885
Well I am glad the church has won for now. I am all for historic preservation but the intentions are obviously not to protect the church but rather to pave the way for further development around the church. The church was built in the late 40's so it isn't even that old or historical to begin with. The City of Miami's interest in all of this shows that local politicians lie in the pockets of developers. Developers give large political contributions to all of our local politicians in return for favors. It's obvious, we all know this.
Here is a link to the article.
Judicial panel quashes historic designation of St. Jude
01-13-2015, 07:18 AM
Location: western East Roman Empire
9,331 posts, read
14,249,190 times
Reputation: 10057
Quote:
Originally Posted by
straight shooter
The church was built in the late 40's so it isn't even that old or historical to begin with. [/url]
Even though the year of construction is relatively recent, the exterior and interior architecture are historical and relatively rare in the Americas and, for me at least, it is a joy to see the church every time I ride through Brickell.
Perhaps not relevant to the issues that you raise, but perhaps a point worth observing anyway.
Here's a question for you: what do the parishioners gain by
not having the church designated as historical?
Maybe the answer is in one of the articles you cited, but perhaps you can summarize it in an economy of words.
Thanks.
01-13-2015, 07:25 AM
62 posts, read
83,338 times
Reputation: 82
I really don't understand this argument the New Times is making over "air rights" since that would involve building over the top of the church. The fact that the church got historic preservation status prevents it from being sold to a developer and bulldozed. As for the church only being 66 years old you have to take into account that Miami is only 118 years old to begin with.
The 60 story building planned next to the church is called Echo Brickell and it zoned for that height at 637 feet which was reduced from it's original height of 750 feet. The article also states that it would be the tallest residential tower in Miami which it's not. The Panorama tower currently under construction a few blocks away will be Miami's & Florida's tallest building at 83 stories upon completion in 2017.
01-13-2015, 07:52 AM
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read
26,700,159 times
Reputation: 5038
Funny to see that church in a sea of ugliness. If not for religious property tax exemptions there would be more of those ugly QE towers up to the corner.
01-13-2015, 02:56 PM
50 posts, read
60,356 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bale002
Even though the year of construction is relatively recent, the exterior and interior architecture are historical and relatively rare in the Americas and, for me at least, it is a joy to see the church every time I ride through Brickell.
Perhaps not relevant to the issues that you raise, but perhaps a point worth observing anyway.
Here's a question for you: what do the parishioners gain by not having the church designated as historical?
Maybe the answer is in one of the articles you cited, but perhaps you can summarize it in an economy of words.
Thanks.
Clergy didn't want the "historical status" as taxes are higher and any renovation/construction needs further permits and is more difficult and expensive.
Parishioners were divided between the ones that didn't want more expenses and the ones who wanted it preserved form speculation.
IMHO not "historic", but worth preserving. Taking into account the lack of urban planning and how the Building department is completely sold out to shady real estate investors, anything with a bit of green in the Brickell area should be public interest.
01-13-2015, 05:06 PM
2,886 posts, read
5,807,232 times
Reputation: 1885
At the beginning many parishioners were suckered into signing the petition to declare the church historic. They were told that the church was planning on selling the property which was a blatant lie. After a while they started to find out what was really behind the move to declare the church historic. Today, a large majority of the parishioners are against the historic designation since it was a move that only benefited developers and development around the church and was against the church's interests.
01-13-2015, 05:27 PM
62 posts, read
83,338 times
Reputation: 82
^ Can you please explain how having this church having being declared with a "historic preservation designation" is to the benefit of developers?
01-13-2015, 05:53 PM
2,886 posts, read
5,807,232 times
Reputation: 1885
It is all about the Air Rights, they are very hard to acquire and very valuable. They can be transfered over to another property to allow for a taller building. If the church is declared historic it cannot be demolished or severely altered, meaning that its air rights will not be used. A developer adjacent to the church can build a taller building than the current zoning allows if he can get the air rights from another property. No one is willing to give up their air rights because it would severely devalue their properties value. The church has no plans on building a high rise, but with the historical designation the value of the property severely decreases meaning the church's possibilities of getting a loan are severely limited and the possibility of expanding or altering the church becomes more difficult and costly due to the limitations associated with the historical designation. To a developer those air rights could represent millions of dollars, maybe 20-40 million.
Last edited by straight shooter; 01-13-2015 at 06:05 PM ..
01-13-2015, 08:23 PM
62 posts, read
83,338 times
Reputation: 82
^ Ok so can you define "Air rights"? I work in real estate and "Air Rights" pertains to the ability to construct something over a existing property like the church itself. Sort of the like "Air rights" over the Grand Central station in NYC where they built the Met Life building directly above it.
What you are describing has more to do with Zoning laws where a developer can build a 60 story tower next to a 2 story church.
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Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)