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Old 03-22-2009, 10:26 PM
 
177 posts, read 352,852 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCreass View Post
If anything, it's the embargo that has isolated them.

Strength by numbers though....if enough people collectively took to the streets, there isn't much the ailing government could do to stop the tide. I think that if enough Cubans managed to get together, it's something they could really achieve.
so why didn't the iraqis do it to saddaam, the slaves to uncle sam, venezulains to hugo, the chinese tried they got shot up in the square. its easier said than done. Why didnt people take over the white house if the majority of americans disagreed with the war in iraq. easier said then done.

 
Old 03-22-2009, 10:29 PM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 651,428 times
Reputation: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
so why didn't the iraqis do it to saddaam, the slaves to uncle sam, venezulains to hugo, the chinese tried they got shot up in the square. its easier said than done. Why didnt people take over the white house if the majority of americans disagreed with the war in iraq. easier said then done.
The Venezuelans voted for Hugo, fairly or not.

Cuba does not have the military capabilities of Iraq or China. For starters, Iraq has 3 different tribes, all vying for power. China is a huge country with 4 times more people than the US, with a huge military, which could crush any insurgency with ease.

Of course it's easier said than done, but democracy doesn't come by simply doing nothing.

Ending the embargo is the way to go....once people there get a whiff of the free market, change is far more likely to happen, whether gradual, or Raul Castro's regime being toppled in a bloody coup.
 
Old 03-22-2009, 10:32 PM
 
177 posts, read 352,852 times
Reputation: 77
look i obviously opened up a can of worms and was just trying to inform a few misguided people on here who were looking at this from a one sided point of view. everyone has their opinion and thankfully we have the right to disagree in this country unlike cuba. if i was in cuba right now i would have been arrested before even finishing this sentence, beat arressted and possibly executed as an example to the rest of what would happen. u think anyones gona open their mouth after seeing that. just inform yourself before speaking on a subject thats all im asking. going to sit this one out from now on guys, hopefully someone more informed than me can take over where i left off.
 
Old 03-22-2009, 10:38 PM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 651,428 times
Reputation: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
look i obviously opened up a can of worms and was just trying to inform a few misguided people on here who were looking at this from a one sided point of view. everyone has their opinion and thankfully we have the right to disagree in this country unlike cuba. if i was in cuba right now i would have been arrested before even finishing this sentence, beat arressted and possibly executed as an example to the rest of what would happen. u think anyones gona open their mouth after seeing that. just inform yourself before speaking on a subject thats all im asking. going to sit this one out from now on guys, hopefully someone more informed than me can take over where i left off.
You didn't open any can of worms. In fact, I'm not even sure if I actually disagree with you....I was just putting a few opinions out there to discuss. You made some very good points and it's been an interesting debate!
 
Old 03-23-2009, 09:33 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,181,916 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
It's a very complicated thing and very hard for someone who didn't experience it to understand. For example look at what Hugo Chavez is currently doing, a very different example but eerily similar in many ways. Only thing I can tell u is to do your research on it, but unfortuntaly most people don't have the time, patience or motivation to learn the true facts about it. Fortunatly for me i was schooled on it by my family that lived thru it. Heres another scenario, imagine if we would of left europe to fend for itslef in world war 2 and allowed hitler to occupy half of Europe.

Also remeber JFK promised the cubans at the bay of pigs support and bascially sent them to their deaths when he betrayed them.
Everyone has their own idea of the "truth". I'm not an expert on Cuba, but I know enough to realize that a lot of Cuban "refugees" are living in a fantasy world. Their "true facts" are what fits their mythology, like the "millions of Cubans that Castro killed".

The CIA was involved in the attempted forced unseating of Chavez, which failed. Given that he won an election, it makes the U.S. look rather hypocritical, supporting democracy only when convenient. I'm not defending Chavez as president (he is clearly a wannabe dictator), but we don't have the right to force on everyone else what we think is good. Pre-Castro Cuba and Iran are good examples of that.

JFK should never have made the commitment to help with the invasion of Cuba in the first place. Was anyone trying to do anything from within Cuba? Did the people there just not think it was worth fighting?

The result of the JFK debacle was a large community blindly voting against JFK's political party for nearly the next 50 years. Thank you for George W. Bush's first term, Cuban community. Al Gore's nauseating pandering to the Cuban community over Elian, etc. amounted to nothing.

And here we are, 50 years later, still engaged in a failed policy toward Cuba, still pandering to the right-wing activistic elements of the Cuban-American community. We do it because Cuba is of little economic interest, and we really don't care about it. Does anyone suffer cognitive dissonance from the way we treat Cuba versus the way we treat China, Vietnam, etc.?
 
Old 03-23-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,181,916 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
because communist russia went bankrupt, something we are trying to do with fidels government, unfortunatly chavez's oil money is keeping him alive for the meantime. nothings worse than seeing my people suffer and many cubans disagree with the emargo, but unfrotuantly thats the stance our country took and stood by all these years , why change it now in the 9th inning. Thats like why abandone iraq now, when we are so close to succeeding, even though it was a mistake going there in the first place.
The missiles came out of Cuba in the early 60's, long before the USSR was going broke. Cuba was effectively a satellite of the USSR; our problem was with the latter.

> why change it now in the 9th inning

Because it doesn't work! Do you worship failure? If a doctor performs a medical procedure for 30 years that doesn't work, and costs money, wouldn't it be rational for him to stop? The embargo is not close to succeeding. Whatever happens next in Cuba is besides or in spite of the embargo. The comparison to Iraq makes no sense; the Cuban embargo and the invasion of Iraq have no relationship. Will people invoke Iraq now for every long-term failure that has no prospect of success?

Did you come from Cuba as an adult? If so, then you made your choice. If your parents came, then they made their choice and yours as well. They chose to bail out and hope they could convince foreigners to fight their battle for them. It was a long shot, and it didn't work out.

Why? because Cuba is of little economic or strategic significance to the U.S. The Cuban-American community has political significance, so the politicians throw them a bone, and talk tough about Castro, and keep the trade and travel restrictions going, but don't do anything of significance.

After 50 years of failure, isn't it time for a new mindset?
 
Old 03-23-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,181,916 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
we voted for Bush twice
The Cuban-American community certainly did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
and didn't do anything to stop him invading Iraq, we just sat around talked big game but never got off our ass to do anything right.
Bush was a demagogue. He took advantage of the emotional state of Americans after the 9/11 attack. In any case, the Cuban-American community voted for him twice; their vote was decisive in his first "victory".

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
the devil always comes to u with a smile and a disguise.
Welcome to the human condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
fidel promised change and fooled everyone , once he assisanted all his threats and was in full power of the military, was when he revealed his alterior motive of communism
He certainly did bring change. It was the end of the oligarchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
and opressed the defenless people of his country. By that time the only option was to flee or or be asassinated
You make the Cubans sound pathetic, and you make Castro sound like an omnipotent god. Castro and his group against millions of people. That's just patently absurd. Who was going to kill and imprison millions of people in Cuba?

One is left with the impression from the most rabid anti-Castroistas in Miami is that they don't give a damn about democracy. They're just bitter that someone else is pulling the strings instead of them. Their idea of "democracy" is alien in America. If you disagree with any small thing that they say, they label you a communist. Forget about the idea of political system versus economic system; if you worry about such things, you must be a communist. If you vote for a Democrat, you're a communists, since the people you vote for are communists. If you criticize their haircut, you're a communist. They've beaten the meaning out of the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
theres only 2 types of people in this world, the ignorant and the informed, u have a lot to learn my friend.
Don't forget about the brainwashed.

Were you an adult in Cuba when Castro came into power? No? Then why do you think the legends and mythology you've been fed all your life is historical truth? Do you claim to be a scholar?
 
Old 03-23-2009, 10:21 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,181,916 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
look i obviously opened up a can of worms and was just trying to inform a few misguided people on here who were looking at this from a one sided point of view.
Of course, your opinion is right, and opposing opinions are misguided.

everyone has their opinion and thankfully we have the right to disagree in this country unlike cuba.[/quote]

You ought to search the news archives for what Miami was like in the 60's through the 80's. If you disagreed with the Cuban-American party line, your life and safety were in peril. You were likely to get shot or beaten up, if you expressed a moderate opinion. Emilio Milan, former news director of WQBA had his legs blown off for not toeing the party line. Want to see a list of attacks, in effect, attacks against free speech? Look here:
http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-sub..._Little_Havana

And still, many politicians and members of the community support terrorists like Orlando Bosch Luis Podada Carriles. We are supposedly against terrorism, except when it suits our purposes, apparently. The three Cuban congressmen from south Florida were doing all they could to help Carriles evade justice, while railing against Islamic terrorists. The hypocrisy is nauseating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
if i was in cuba right now i would have been arrested before even finishing this sentence, beat arressted and possibly executed as an example to the rest of what would happen
That's really bad. And if this were the 20 years ago, after posting what I'm saying, I would likely have my car boobytrapped by Cuban-American Anti-Castro "radicals" if they could track me down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
u think anyones gona open their mouth after seeing that.
So you're saying it's impossible to ditch one's govenment? History proves you wrong. Are you only able to think of individual action, like a single strongman going to battle against Castro? Were Cubans just unable to work together? Was Castro going to kill and imprison millions of people? That's ridiculous. Is it possible that the oligarchs who were the first to bail out of Cuba were not the most loved citizens of their country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
just inform yourself before speaking on a subject thats all im asking.
Your expertise obviously comes from the propaganda and mythology you were fed your whole life, including that Castro was some kind of all-powerful god. Those legends had the effect of handing Castro the power, and making the folks who took off from Cuba instead of fighting look better.

Castro and Gueverra took over Cuba with a small band of men. Apparently it's not that hard to take over Cuba. I don't know about Castro, but Gueverra was no military genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscleman305 View Post
going to sit this one out from now on guys, hopefully someone more informed than me can take over where i left off.
I suggest you take your own advice and learn more about the subject, beyond what you were told by partisan sources.
 
Old 03-23-2009, 12:50 PM
 
Location: MIA
1,335 posts, read 2,275,692 times
Reputation: 544
Quote:
1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter,
which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of
relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba,
attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest
of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group
Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of
terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to
Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one
of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban
political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist
Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez
is now a member of the Miami- Dade County Public School Board and owner of
the Lincoln-Marti private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked
to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in
downtown Miami while demonstrating against
Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Espa=F1ol, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to
Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations
with Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction
of paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of
a conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera
bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization
Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being
jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of
unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Espa=F1ol, which ships packages
to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to
Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of
Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on
Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican
actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles
looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an
end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the
Miami Herald, whose executives then
receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with
feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles
have created an environment in which
"moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambi commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban
exiles physically assault demonstrators
lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured,
sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner
Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have
to look at the legalities of whether the
City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami
exiles do not tolerate dissident
opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that
local government leaders refuse to denounce
acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her
videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance
of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba
physically assaulted by 200 exile
protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County
Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant
preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita
Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to
Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to
Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO- FM
following its short-lived decision to include in
its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during
performance by 91-year-old Cuban
musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding
performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by
Cuban singer Manolin.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van
leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding
performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin,
protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban
Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before
police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk
show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send
the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by
nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

Sounds like a lot of violent incidents happened after 1980 involving Cubans. Not to mention the crime rate soared RIGHT after El Mariel. The "Cuban Crime Wave" also gave Haitians, Dominicans, Nicaraguans, and other poor, dysfunctional cultures the idea of coming over in mass exodus, just like a herd of water buffalo crossing an African river laden with crocodiles. They have strength in numbers not to be caught when they float across in great numbers.
 
Old 03-23-2009, 10:45 PM
 
432 posts, read 547,318 times
Reputation: 191
Hey take it easy muscleman305, you definitely opened a can of worms. In my opinion, do not get involved to much in this kind of discussion. If you really lived in Cuba as an adult, you really know how a dictatorship works. Let others praise themselves as scholars in the subject, but at the end, they are just spectators in the Castro's circus, while you had a seat in the front line of the spectacle and no history book or a simple journey to Cuba; of course as an international tourist, can give you enough evidence of how a dictatorship works. In the other hand, I think the US embargo, the travel restrictions and even the Cuban Adjustment Act is a totally waste of time. The best way, in my opinion, to break a totalitarian system is opening trade and a remove all posible restrictions.

PD: Do not take it personal Cougar or Cuba Libre; by the way, why did you have this nickname? I thought you were Cuban-American.
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