How would Miami be different today if the McDuffie riots and Mariel had never occurred? (Miami Beach: foreclosed, condo)

[StreetSmarts]

Only the rich and exclusive choose to live in Miami. Blue collared whites were forced out of Miami due to the high cost of living and the demand for living in paradise being so high. They didnt leave because they wanted a better quality of life, they moved because they were forced out by the glitz and glamour and the high price tag.

[compelled to reply]

Originally Posted by ComSense

Only the rich and exclusive choose to live in Miami. Blue collared whites were forced out of Miami due to the high cost of living and the demand for living in paradise being so high. They didnt leave because they wanted a better quality of life, they moved because they were forced out by the glitz and glamour and the high price tag.

Even though you were probably being sarcastic (can't tell with the "paradise" undertones), you finally said something realistic about Miami! And high price tag can go hand and hand with quality of life for the lower middle class.

[Marlin331]

I don't find the term "Hispanic" or "Latino" to be offensive either; I was just commenting that no one ever spoke of "Latinos" as a group in South Florida until very recently. It seems to me that the use of the term in commercials, advertisements, and radio commentary in the South Florida market (I listen to both Spanish and English-language radio when in Miami) has dramatically increased since the year 2000.

The whole idea of "Latino" as a common ethnicity/culture seems to be to be most supported by newly-arrived Cubans, Central Americans, and South Americans of the working and middle classes. Old-timer Cubans and Cuban-Americans generally aren't too interested in it, and neither are upper-class South Americans.

Like I have said, I almost never heard the word "Latino" used during my South Florida childhood and adolescence. I admit that I am weary of using the term solely due to the connotation it has acquired in the United States over the last 30 years or so. In the Northeast, "Latino" is most commonly associated with inner-city and economically disadvantaged "people of color" who share neighborhoods with African-Americans; in most other regions of this country, "Latino" is most commonly associated with "brown" Mexicans, and to all too many people, it connotes questionable legal status.

To the surprise of many, I proudly identify with both the Latin (by virtue of both ancestry and local traditions) and Anglo (by virtue of being born and raised in this country) cultures. If someone asks me if I am "Latino," however, I will always ask what that person means. If they mean culture and traditions, sure. However, if they want to know whether I identify as being a "minority" in the traditional sense the term is used in this country, then I say no, that I am not "Latino" in that sense. I am not confortable with associating myself without limitation with the word "Latino" and what it has become in this country, and my story is not unique... several people I know that either grew up in South Florida, or grew up in Latin Europe or Latin America feel the same.

Though I do have the Spanish language and Latin culture in common with some people who call themselves "Latino" from othe regions of this country, I often find that I really don't identify myself with other American "Latinos". Myself and most of my Miami friends grew up as ethnic whites a la NJ Italian-Americans or Massachusetts Portuguese-Americans, and in contrast, most other American "Latinos" grew up as "minorities".

The reason I went on what may appear to be a tangent is to illustrate that the makings of a common "Latino" identity in Miami will likely change the ethnic and cultural associations that Miami-raised children and adolescents will develop. When people begin to identify with a term that has developed (albeit misleadingly) a pseudo-racial context (that connotes "minority"), people begin to see them differently.

All of this is leading up to a point I want to make that many of you may find controversial. If the children of old-time Cubans and Cuban-Americans get absorbed into the "Latino" macro-group that has such strong and often negative connotations as I have outlined above, two important consequences could result. First, these young people might struggle to identify with non-"Latinos" outside of Miami. Second, the established economic and social bonds between Anglos and Cubans/Cuban-Americans in South Florida could begin to unravel, causing flight of fairly strong Anglo upper-middle and upper classes in coastal Miami-Dade and Coral Gables/South Miami/Sunset areas. This is absolutely unprecedented in Miami-Dade and I truly hope this never comes to pass.

In summary, Cubans/Cuban-Americans - and to a lesser extent established South Americans and people of Latin European origin - have developed a unique ethnic and cultural identity that could be threatened if people in South Florida start to identify as "Latino" in the sense in which the word is used in most of the rest of this country. The consequences of doing so could result in some of the most dramatic historical changes in Miami-Dade County since Mariel.

[Bobadas]

Crisp

Problem is that old-time Cuban-Americans and their children are bound to become a completely different and isolated group with the passage of time. They will be totally assimilated in a couple of generations and I think that they will become a distinctive American ethnic group, such as the Cubans of Key West or Tampeños.

Old-time Cuban-Americans don't have much resemblance with new arrivals. Cubans in Cuba that are vaguely resemblant to old-time Cuban-Americans don't leave the country anymore since they are the ruling white elite. New arrivals are far more resemblant to economic migrants from Central America or South America than to old-time Cubans.

I don't think that old-time Cubans and wealthy South Americans in South Florida will be absorbed into the Latino macrogroup. They will remain being a singularity in the United States. There are a lot of intermarriages right now and I think that old-time Cuban Americans born in the US, now in their second or third generation, are totally assimilated.

Of course, they won't be engulfed by the "Latino Macrogroup", but it might be in their interest to take advantage of their numbers and their political clout as the most important minority in the US. "Better be the head of a mouse than the tail of a lion".

[Bobadas]

Originally Posted by ComSense

Only the rich and exclusive choose to live in Miami. Blue collared whites were forced out of Miami due to the high cost of living and the demand for living in paradise being so high. They didnt leave because they wanted a better quality of life, they moved because they were forced out by the glitz and glamour and the high price tag.

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Wrong again, sorry. They left because there were no jobs for them. As Cubans started to patronize Cubans shops way back during the early 60's and hire Cuban plumbers, electricians, gardeners, barbers, many American shops ended in Cuban hands and many blue collars had to leave. Such a feat is not new in American history.

A similar phenomena was taking place in Overtown at that time, as segregation faded away many black shops and businesses had to close because blacks started to buy in department stores and large shops that were barred to them.

[Loggerhead Shrike]

Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥

It's not really a big issue here. They usually get along. We have bigger issues like a crappy economy based on low paying jobs, high real estate prices, foreclosures, high crime and too much Spanish speaking(even though I think it's blown out of proportion in this forum, it is a real issue if someone does not like hearing Spanish spoken.

I don't think the Mariel has anything to do with the perception of Cubans anymore, those people assimilated a long time ago. For non-hispanics, anybody that speak Spanish is a Cuban and for other hispanics all Cubans are the same, Cubans.

I completely agree with you. There are petty animosities/stereotypes betwen different hispanic groups but nothing major and overall it is not an issue. It is not like Chicago where I hear Mexicans and Puerto Ricans do not get along at all.

I think the Mariel thing is in the past. I was mentioning the Marielitos to a group of young co-workers in their 20's and they had no idea what I was talking about. I had to explain the term Marielito. They were all young hispanics (Cubans and others).

Also completely agree with you regarding how to other hispanics all Cubans are the same, regardless of when they came. It is the Cubans that make these distinctions, which is natural since they know more about their people.

[StreetSmarts]

Originally Posted by compelled to reply

Even though you were probably being sarcastic (can't tell with the "paradise" undertones), you finally said something realistic about Miami! And high price tag can go hand and hand with quality of life for the lower middle class.

I was being sarcastic. A poster said that it was the Anglos (like me) forced out of Miami - not because we wanted a better quality of life - but because we couldnt afford the so-called glamour life that Miami provides. Completely untrue. Talk to the Anglos that left Miami - trust me 0 I know many - they arent bitter - they're glad the left.

[♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥]

Crisp

You and I have very different views about race. While I know your point of view about race does not represent every Cuban or Cuban American in S Florida, my experience has been that is more common in your group. So to answer an earlier question you asked me, these are the kind of experiences that make think negatively about some Cubans. When someone constantly talks negatively about skin color like some of my Cuban friends do, my perception is that this person somehow thinks that having a dark skin color makes a person inferior

Now regarding your post...

Originally Posted by crisp444

If the children of old-time Cubans and Cuban-Americans get absorbed into the "Latino" macro-group that has such strong and often negative connotations as I have outlined above, the established economic and social bonds between Anglos and Cubans/Cuban-Americans in South Florida could begin to unravel, causing flight of fairly strong Anglo upper-middle and upper classes in coastal Miami-Dade and Coral Gables/South Miami/Sunset areas. This is absolutely unprecedented in Miami-Dade and I truly hope this never comes to pass.

Last time I checked cities like Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, NYC have a large population of this "latino" macro group and they not only have a stronger economy, more corporate investment but in fact they have a higher white nonhispanic population. The infamous white flight has actually been larger here in South Florida. White flight is not necessarily related to race, but to economic opportunities. Even if some people left because they can't stand some ethnicity, other white people will come and some will stay. Check the statistics for a city like Dallas whose population keeps growing many times faster than Miami's

[marimbero]

Yes. We are glad they left too. They could not stand being in a city in which they were not the dominant group. Good riddance.

[Bobadas]

Originally Posted by ComSense

I was being sarcastic. A poster said that it was the Anglos (like me) forced out of Miami - not because we wanted a better quality of life - but because we couldnt afford the so-called glamour life that Miami provides. Completely untrue. Talk to the Anglos that left Miami - trust me 0 I know many - they arent bitter - they're glad the left.

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Because they couldn't afford the quality of life they had before. Miami became a expensive international city, not a backwater town living in the shadow of Miami Beach anymore.

No jobs for them. No jobs for Anglo blue collars. No Anglo Mom and Pop shops.

Rich and professional Anglos still live in Miami.