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Old 07-14-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
Reputation: 2059

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Why do you always target suburbs? Suburbs represent the epitome of personal freedom.

Living in a high density urban area, you surrender so much, including quality of life, personal freedom, as well as a much higher proportion of your income... Crime, poverty, corruption, pollution, high taxes, noise and lack of space constitute a menagerie of ills that will continue to drive middle class families OUT of the inner city.

All people like you can hope for is some kind of natural disaster that destroys the world economy, rendering the automobile obsolete...
I was born and raised in NYC and I now live in South Florida. I have not gained anymore personal freedom here than I had there. Sort of a silly/absurd notion. Secondly, when your "personal" freedom infringes on my rights and the shared resources of our society and the future rights and resources of my children then that needs to stop. Self centered living is what got America into the situation it is in now and continuing such a foolish way of life is going to dig the hole deeper.

Also, if you think crime is not increasing in the suburbs then you are out of touch with what is going on. Ask any cop what is going on right now. People are losing jobs and they are doing what they need to do in order to survive. I know a guy who was living in some suburb in Tallahassee that had his head blown off during a home invasion. Also, from what I am hearing from realtor friends is, a lot of people who can't sell their homes in the 'burbs are renting them. They want steady income so that the renter doesn't end up losing their jobs and then can't pay so guess who they are renting too? Section 8 my friend, and with that comes a host of problems. Not saying everyone on section 8 is a criminal but the element is there. Do some research.

As for "people like me" you again fail to realize I guess do to your lack of knowledge of economics, the game is over. Just think what happened last year when gas prices sky rocketed. People wanted to move closer to work. people wanted mass transit and on and on it goes. Well they are printing money like crazy and they have already said the price of goods have gone up because of input cost (petroleum). What do you think is going to happen as the printing presses keep rolling. YOu should enroll in a econ class so you can understand the issues at hand.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 541,924 times
Reputation: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Why do you always target suburbs? Suburbs represent the epitome of personal freedom.

Living in a high density urban area, you surrender so much, including quality of life, personal freedom, as well as a much higher proportion of your income... Crime, poverty, corruption, pollution, high taxes, noise and lack of space constitute a menagerie of ills that will continue to drive middle class families OUT of the inner city.

All people like you can hope for is some kind of natural disaster that destroys the world economy, rendering the automobile obsolete...
It's not necessarily the suburbs that represent freedom....it's the cheap transportation....ie cars (gas-energy).
What freedom are you gonna have...if you have no car to get you around? Or if you can't afford much gasoline to go about? Or if they roads are clogged? No money for infrastructure....

Also....suburbs can be really boring. Specially if you're a "people person", mover-shaker, artsy-fartsy. All those types need the urban setting....in order to be able to flourish....and without an efficient, easily accessible transportation system, they just can't function...optimally.

On the other hand....you have careers and personality types for whom the suburbs are ideal.
There's also age brackets. Little kids and pre-teens love the suburbs. They want space, backyards, sandboxes. Once they pass 13, they want more intense interaction...and the suburbs can be real boring dives for that age group. Even more so....if the city doesn't have an adequate public transportation system...to get them around safely.

Ideally, every family should have a condo in the city and a house in the suburbs....so they can move back'n forth....according to their needs and age bracket. When single....go to the condo. Once...old....Go back. In between....raise your kids in the 'burbs.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:27 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
Reputation: 2059
Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
It's not necessarily the suburbs that represent freedom....it's the cheap transportation....ie cars (gas-energy).
What freedom are you gonna have...if you have no car to get you around? Or if you can't afford much gasoline to go about? Or if they roads are clogged? No money for infrastructure....

Also....suburbs can be really boring. Specially if you're a "people person", mover-shaker, artsy-fartsy. All those types need the urban setting....in order to be able to flourish....and without an efficient, easily accessible transportation system, they just can't function...optimally.

On the other hand....you have careers and personality types for whom the suburbs are ideal.
There's also age brackets. Little kids and pre-teens love the suburbs. They want space, backyards, sandboxes. Once they pass 13, they want more intense interaction...and the suburbs can be real boring dives for that age group. Even more so....if the city doesn't have an adequate public transportation system...to get them around safely.

Ideally, every family should have a condo in the city and a house in the suburbs....so they can move back'n forth....according to their needs and age bracket. When single....go to the condo. Once...old....Go back. In between....raise your kids in the 'burbs.
As I kid I would have taken the city over the burbs any day of the week. Lots going on and we had tons of fun doing it. I think the whole kids need backyards thing is another fallacy/marketing tool they used to endorse these bedroom communities as they were once called.
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 541,924 times
Reputation: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
As I kid I would have taken the city over the burbs any day of the week. Lots going on and we had tons of fun doing it. I think the whole kids need backyards thing is another fallacy/marketing tool they used to endorse these bedroom communities as they were once called.
Well....I've got a kid who's just gone through the whining phase (for a suburban house).
I wouldn't have minded a couple of extra rooms....(just to store all my books 'n kid's toys). For the kind of activities that they're into....at the pre-teen stage....I can see why suburbs are really attractive for families with kids. Even in Europe (where there there is no "cult of suburbia") a lot of families commute to and from the suburbs....because of their kids.
If you live in downtown Sao Paulo...(ie Faria Lima & Consolacao) unless you belong to the nearby Jewish club....or the posh private club around the corner....your kids are stranded....on the asphalt.
You have to accompany them everywhere....
Whereas....if you can afford one of those nice private gated suburban enclaves....you can have a peace of mind.
So really....the downtown becomes the place for those who can afford its better lifestyle (ie cultural life, private clubs...etc) and those who can't quite afford the nice suburbs.
I see no advantage to living where I am now (downtown....close to arts venues and office towers) ...unless...
A.) you work around here or
B) you can't be bothered to commute, hate traffic....hate wasting time on the road
C) can't justify the cost of commuting or don't have the $$ for a suburban house....and a guzzler
D)hate the isolation of suburbia
D) relish the cultural life and the urban atmosphere...of the city core
E) you're a "greener" by ideology.....a budding environmentalist...who bikes and walks everywhere....or takes the public transit too. Even on a date
There is no point to creating a city vs suburbs debate. They both offer a lot. The question is what does one need? When...at what stage of life? Can one afford it? In the city? or the suburb? Does one have the time to commute? Daily?
Obviously...cities are a more economical option....(for the masses) and as you said earlier....we are looking at higher energy costs....and more urban density. That doesn't necessarily translate into death of the suburbs.

Who knows? We may be looking at a telecommuting workforce in the next decades....as the companies (the knowledge class) have to increasingly compete with India, China, Russia...office space maybe cut...and people may HAVE to work from their suburban homes.
No matter what....unless you create parks and build good schools and adequate transportation in the downtown core....you're not going to attract families with $$, but single parents, one child couples, singles, the old...etc. You could attract the really, really wealthy...who can buy private schools, private clubs...etc.
A good transporation system between the suburbs and the downtown will infact...probably save some suburbs from ghettoization....as the not-so-wealthy middle class...downsizes to one car per family....and is increasingly forced to move closer to the city center, in order to reduce commuting expenses.

Last edited by SadieMirsade; 07-14-2009 at 02:45 PM..
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:48 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 3,023,399 times
Reputation: 400
Cuba

The problem is that suburbs are not sustainable if you don't have a very rich country.
Maybe, in the near future, only the rich will be able to sustain a house in the suburbs in America, just like in Europe.
Right now Americans are not prepared to live in "beehives", but they might have to adapt.
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:04 PM
 
2,930 posts, read 6,021,697 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
Well....I've got a kid who's just gone through the whining phase (for a suburban house).
I wouldn't have minded a couple of extra rooms....(just to store all my books 'n kid's toys). For the kind of activities that they're into....at the pre-teen stage....I can see why suburbs are really attractive for families with kids. Even in Europe (where there there is no "cult of suburbia") a lot of families commute to and from the suburbs....because of their kids.
If you live in downtown Sao Paulo...(ie Faria Lima & Consolacao) unless you belong to the nearby Jewish club....or the posh private club around the corner....your kids are stranded....on the asphalt.
You have to accompany them everywhere....
Whereas....if you can afford one of those nice private gated suburban enclaves....you can have a peace of mind.
So really....the downtown becomes the place for those who can afford its better lifestyle (ie cultural life, private clubs...etc) and those who can't quite afford the nice suburbs.
I see no advantage to living where I am now (downtown....close to arts venues and office towers) ...unless...
A.) you work around here or
B) you can't be bothered to commute, hate traffic....hate wasting time on the road
C) can't justify the cost of commuting or don't have the $$ for a suburban house....and a guzzler
D)hate the isolation of suburbia
D) relish the cultural life and the urban atmosphere...of the city core
E) you're a "greener" by ideology.....a budding environmentalist...who bikes and walks everywhere....or takes the public transit too. Even on a date
There is no point to creating a city vs suburbs debate. They both offer a lot. The question is what does one need? When...at what stage of life? Can one afford it? In the city? or the suburb? Does one have the time to commute? Daily?
Obviously...cities are a more economical option....(for the masses) and as you said earlier....we are looking at higher energy costs....and more urban density. That doesn't necessarily translate into death of the suburbs.

Who knows? We may be looking at a telecommuting workforce in the next decades....as the companies (the knowledge class) have to increasingly compete with India, China, Russia...office space maybe cut...and people may HAVE to work from their suburban homes.
No matter what....unless you create parks and build good schools and adequate transportation in the downtown core....you're not going to attract families with $$, but single parents, one child couples, singles, the old...etc. You could attract the really, really wealthy...who can buy private schools, private clubs...etc.
A good transporation system between the suburbs and the downtown will infact...probably save some suburbs from ghettoization....as the not-so-wealthy middle class...downsizes to one car per family....and is increasingly forced to move closer to the city center, in order to reduce commuting expenses.
Great post, finally someone takes into account the advances in technology. Nobody is even taking into account the fact that we might have electric cars in the future. The truth is, no one knows what the future holds. We cannot compare this recession or depression, or whatever you wanna call it to the 1930's. Things change so rapidly for better or worse.
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:09 PM
 
Location: MIA
1,335 posts, read 3,132,619 times
Reputation: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
I was born and raised in NYC and I now live in South Florida. I have not gained anymore personal freedom here than I had there. Sort of a silly/absurd notion. Secondly, when your "personal" freedom infringes on my rights and the shared resources of our society and the future rights and resources of my children then that needs to stop. Self centered living is what got America into the situation it is in now and continuing such a foolish way of life is going to dig the hole deeper.
Don't drink Al Gore's Koolaid... This doomsday phrophecy stuff is not mainstream. This is not a Greenpeace forum here. I will not submit my lifestyle to thet grinder of some pseudo-intellectual who calls himself an academic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
Also, if you think crime is not increasing in the suburbs then you are out of touch with what is going on.
The crime index for my suburb 45 min outside of Chicago, well within the "outer ring" of Chicago's suburbs, is 47.
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Old 07-14-2009, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 541,924 times
Reputation: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolitazz View Post
Great post, finally someone takes into account the advances in technology. Nobody is even taking into account the fact that we might have electric cars in the future. The truth is, no one knows what the future holds. We cannot compare this recession or depression, or whatever you wanna call it to the 1930's. Things change so rapidly for better or worse.
Well....there's a new book out (that I still have to read) about limited energy sources and the high cost of "inputs" inolved (with our present technology) in the production of alternate sources of energy (vs. oil).
To sum it up...the author is preaching...."local". (Jeff Rubin's "Shrinking World" )
The cost of transportation is going to be so high...that our Dollar stores (and their cheap Chinese trinkets) may just evaporate.
His theory is.....we'll be buying "local". We'll be eating...more "local". We'll be living in denser communities. We'll be consuming less, by necessity.....as the natural resources of our planet...are limited. Therefore...the market's supply is limited.
I'm wondering if the price of "local" won't still be too high? (labour costs)...and if instead of China....manufacturers won't be relying more on Mexico & the Caribbean for their cheap labour!
Or will that "local" mean.... advances in manufacturing technology.... which will make it possible to manufacture cost-effectively right back on mainland...US & Canada, Europe.

Last edited by SadieMirsade; 07-14-2009 at 05:36 PM..
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:28 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
Reputation: 2059
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Don't drink Al Gore's Koolaid... This doomsday phrophecy stuff is not mainstream. This is not a Greenpeace forum here. I will not submit my lifestyle to thet grinder of some pseudo-intellectual who calls himself an academic.



The crime index for my suburb 45 min outside of Chicago, well within the "outer ring" of Chicago's suburbs, is 47.
sigh,

Listen it is simple economics. You don't seem to understand economics and I am sure it seems like magic and vodoo but if you bothered to do some research into the matter you would get what I am saying.

US Dollar = Reserve currency, commodities are priced in dollars (for now). The U.S. was able to use a strong dollar policy to keep the price of gas artificially low for its citizens. which enabled us to have cheap gas, SUVs and homes way out in the middle of no where. Well, that day is done, the dollar is losing its place as the reserve currency and the govt has decided to print money which amounts to further eroding the value of the dollar (or inflating away the debt). That means it will take more dollars to purchase the same amount of goods. Hence higher gas prices. If higher gas prices come in (which they will) then that means it becomes less economical to live out in the burbs. So instead of trying to argue a point based on your limited understanding and what you heard on FOX just do research next time. Reading a little never killed anyone.

As for a tax on resources, just go speak to any urban planner, it is common sense. With urban sprawl that means water is needed to maintain lawns, means less density which means more water consumption per person. Again all things you can research or you can continue to believe the fallacies you seem to hold dear.

As for the label of 'pseudo intellectual" you have to be qualified in the topic at hand to make such a determination and unfortunately you seem to know about as much about economics as the news caster on TV informed you of.

As for main stream beliefs, let me help you think through this part of the topic. 90% of economist didn't see this downturn coming or should I say they didn't make their beliefs known. Yet now we are supposed to listen to what they think is or will happen? Put your thinking cap on, listen to those who have proven track records. Those who saw this coming and predicted with 100% accuracy the details of what is unfolding all agree on the issues at hand. When it is said and done America will look and operate differently. I will leave you to research the details, or you can continue to follow what your "gut" tells you.

Quote:
Great post, finally someone takes into account the advances in technology. Nobody is even taking into account the fact that we might have electric cars in the future. The truth is, no one knows what the future holds. We cannot compare this recession or depression, or whatever you wanna call it to the 1930's. Things change so rapidly for better or worse.
Advances in technolgy help those who can afford it. the Real unemplloyment rate is at 16 percent (some have calculated 18 to 20 percent) and that number is climbing with no end in sight. Who is going to purchase this stuff? The unemployment is rising and will continue to do so for some time. So plug in cars will not be helping a vast majority of people. Unless they can bring the cost of them to well below what cars today cost or unless the govt embarks on wage inflation. The purchase of such cars will be out of the reach of many. Not to mention technology is not going to make the consumption of resources such as water for example go away. Suburbia is huge tax on such resources. The good thing is, they wont have to force people to change their life styles and living habbits, conditions will dictate policy.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 541,924 times
Reputation: 266
I have a feeling that suburban lawns are gonna be turned into food gardens, and backyards into market gardens.
Apple and mango trees will replace oaks and palms...and passion fruit will become the flower-of-choice.
(they say that maracuya is really good for the nerves...and we'll really need some natural sedatives .....if things really turn out as bad as Wild Style predicts )
PS. I'm not a pessimist by nature...but I don't buy Tony Robbins' tapes either.
I've lived in a communist country....(where education was free and $$$ was tight) and I've lived in Latin America (during the worst times).

Somehow...both of these worlds have pulled off....miracles.
There may just be a miracle in store for the US as well. I can't see how all these underutilized resources (ie. the next couple of generations of educated US brains ) cannot be put to optimal use and a tangible recovery.

Capital $$$$ will definitely have to become more "nationalistic". Loyalty to country and community...will have to become paramount. Call it protectionism...or whatever....but if oil's scarce.....so's capital $$$.

You can't be **itting and **issing in the US....and cheering for the Singapore stockmarket index....forever, specially if the Chinese aren't buying American as well.
People are gonna start asking you....where are you investing? Where'd you make that $$ in the first place? At least....the government is going to have to creative massive incentives for investing and spending....at home.

Last edited by SadieMirsade; 07-14-2009 at 07:03 PM..
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