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Old 07-11-2009, 05:03 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 3,023,399 times
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Wild

I live in one of the areas with best public transportation in the world.

The Crown of Barcelona. We have conmuting trains, subways, buses and fast speed trains that take you to Madrid in 2.5 hours (400 miles). We also have one of the best airport hubs in all Europe. You can fly to any city in England, Germany and France for less than 50 dollars.

But the frame of mind of people here is different. Cities are different and we don't have high crime areas or extremelly problematic minorities (not yet). People are used to live together, cramped, many times in old and medieval cities. Traffic here is awful, 100 times worse than in Florida. There's no space and people are used to drive in little matchboxes and park in triple line.

But the ideal of people here is not to live in a suburban house with a large lot in a place without "strange" people, without public transportation. You need million of Euros to live like that here, but not there.

In certain ways, the US is just like many underdeveloped countries. Parts of your population are impossible to assimilate (I don't see that in the future), so the only way to develop downtown and make that people (that are used to live in suburban homes with a quality of life we don't have in Europe) move Downtown is to recreate "their paradise" in Downtown.

They won't be able to remove dangerous neighbourhoods. They won't be able to remove winos (many extremelly smart people have been trying to do that during the last 40 years).

I don't see people in Miami shelling a lot of money to live in a place "not safe" with "diverse" people. Maybe in Liberal cities, not in Miami. You might have a niche in the market, but not many people.

The only way people will buy there is to create a environment similar (but cheaper) than Brickell. Anglos won't flock there because Anglos in South Florida want a suburban house in a extremely safe enviroment with no diversity. Ok, there might be some, but not many.
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Old 07-11-2009, 05:23 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leovigildo View Post
Wild

I live in one of the areas with best public transportation in the world.

The Crown of Barcelona. We have conmuting trains, subways, buses and fast speed trains that take you to Madrid in 2.5 hours (400 miles). We also have one of the best airport hubs in all Europe. You can fly to any city in England, Germany and France for less than 50 dollars.

But the frame of mind of people here is different. Cities are different and we don't have high crime areas or extremelly problematic minorities (not yet). People are used to live together, cramped, many times in old and medieval cities. Traffic here is awful, 100 times worse than in Florida. There's no space and people are used to drive in little matchboxes and park in triple line.

But the ideal of people here is not to live in a suburban house with a large lot in a place without "strange" people, without public transportation. You need million of Euros to live like that here, but not there.

In certain ways, the US is just like many underdeveloped countries. Parts of your population are impossible to assimilate (I don't see that in the future), so the only way to develop downtown and make that people (that are used to live in suburban homes with a quality of life we don't have in Europe) move Downtown is to recreate "their paradise" in Downtown.

They won't be able to remove dangerous neighbourhoods. They won't be able to remove winos (many extremelly smart people have been trying to do that during the last 40 years).

I don't see people in Miami shelling a lot of money to live in a place "not safe" with "diverse" people. Maybe in Liberal cities, not in Miami. You might have a niche in the market, but not many people.

The only way people will buy there is to create a environment similar (but cheaper) than Brickell. Anglos won't flock there because Anglos in South Florida want a suburban house in a extremely safe enviroment with no diversity.
Great post and I agree with you on the mentality of Americans outside of the bigger/older cities. Being from Europe though you don't know our history or culture. You must realize, before suburbia people lived in cities and urban towns. Those that didn't, lived in rural areas which were generally farming/fishing villages. Suburbs are a new phenomenon that came about with in the last generation or so. It was economic prosperity and corporate marketing that brainwashed people into thinking living in conditions which taxed our resources is the way to go. So it isn't that long ago that people wanted to live in more urban conditions. That is point 1.

Point 2, you have to remember that during economic and social changes be they negative or positive, the mentality of the people undergoing these shifts change as well. Look at Europe after WWII, you got things like more socialistic programs (like universal health care). Because of the extreme toll the war took on the citizenry. My point is, we in America are undergoing a economic event unlike any we have seen in many generations. We are in a time when the dollar is being devalued at a faster rate than ever before. We are in a time when our dollar will cease to be the world reserve currency. These two events mean higher commodity prices (such as petroleum). This means people will be begging for mini coopers and fiat 500s, and BMW 635Ds (God I love that car).

Give you a example, during the price shock in petroleum we experienced last year, ridership on our useless tri rail commuter train tripled. And after prices went down a bit people still continued to ride. I have a co worker that travels from Miami to Broward on tri rail. He started because of the gas price spikes and he still rides. His words to me was he will NEVER drive again if he doesn't have to. This is a guy born and raised in South Florida. Mentalites are not fixed, humans are adaptable and as this economic shift continues, our behavior will adjust to meet those new conditions. This includes living in more urban environments where you can walk to the store, and get to work quickly and take transit to get there. People have not swarmed into downtown as of yet because the prices are still extremely absurd. Also the infrastructure isnt there. As the prices go down I assure you people will flow into these urban centers. We have seen this happen all over America.

PS

Your theory about Miamians is completely incorrect. History has shown us that. South Beach used to be a crack and prostitute infested scum pond. People moved in despite this and helped to clean it up. It is still rough around the edges but people still pushed in and changed it. People will move to places where things are not prim and proper and yes the riff raft will leave as the new residents demand better police protection. Miami is not some magical fairy land were reality ceases to exist. This process has happened in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Nashville, Atlanta and on and on it goes and in every instance it always happens in the same way.
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:04 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 3,023,399 times
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Wild

I lived in Miami many years.

I lived in Miami Beach, not a crack and prostitute infested scum pond when I lived there during the 70's It was a rather surrealistic place packed with Germans of Jewish religion that lived in old Art Deco hotels, and there were areas with posh Jewish neighbourhoods (I lived at Polo Park for a while) and later right in front of the pier. It was a nice place.

I lived there during the Oil Crisis of the 70's, but the impact there was quite irrelevant compared to Europe. An enormous and a very rich country.

I know that suburban life started during the 40's and 50's. Such a planning is not sustainable anymore, but it will continue for generations because US is a very traditional country, with an autonomous and a very large economy and it will take many years to change. I'd say two generations.

I don't see Americans living in cramped cities like us, not during the next 40 years. Americans are very individualistic, they don't take as much crap as we do. They would end killing each other. Europeans are no different, but we don't have space or resources.

Europeans have not changed a bit during the last 500 years. Now, thanks to Americans, we live under a benign protectorate with the Democracy that Americans imposed us (we are happy with it).

Miami is not NYC, Chicago, Boston, Nashville or Atlanta. Miami is a unique experiment in the world. The only Hispanic city in the continent that works (more or less). A protectorate of the US, just like Europe, under US Administration.

The only way that Downtown will be feasible is to construct South American styles condos, just like Brickell, but more down to earth, cheaper. Centralized security.

Last edited by Leovigildo; 07-11-2009 at 06:15 PM..
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leovigildo View Post
Wild

I lived in Miami many years.

I lived in Miami Beach, not a crack and prostitute infested scum pond when I lived there during the 70's It was a rather surrealistic place packed with Germans of Jewish religion that lived in old Art Deco hotels, and there were areas with posh Jewish neighbourhoods (I lived at Polo Park for a while) and later right in front of the pier. It was a nice place.

I lived there during the Oil Crisis of the 70's, but the impact there was quite irrelevant compared to Europe. An enormous and a very rich country.

I know that suburban life started during the 40's and 50's. Such a planning is not sustainable anymore, but it will continue for generations because US is a very traditional country, with an autonomous and a very large economy and it will take many years to change. I'd say two generations.

I don't see Americans living in cramped cities like us, not during the next 40 years. Americans are very individualistic, they don't take as much crap as we do. They would end killing each other. Europeans are no different, but we don't have space or resources.

Europeans have not changed a bit during the last 500 years. Now, thanks to Americans, we live under a benign protectorate with the Democracy that Americans imposed us (we are happy with it).

Miami is not NYC, Chicago, Boston, Nashville or Atlanta. Miami is a unique experiment in the world. The only Hispanic city in the continent that works (more or less). A protectorate of the US, just like Europe, under US Administration.
what you are saying makes absolutely no sense. It did not take 40 yrs for Americans to move from cities to the suburbs and it wont take 40 yrs for them to move from the suburbs to the urban core. All your theories defy logic and American history. I appreciate the fact you lived here in the 70s but the fact remains your views and reality (history) don't add up.

Check this out:

Quote:
Portas acknowledges the crime in the neighborhood is worse than in other areas of South Beach, like the streets and avenues closer to Lincoln Road and Española Way. But Portas claims that it used to be a lot worse in the Eighties and early Nineties.
link <---- read this

I have also heard other accounts from people who were here long before I came here who said parts of south beach were really really really bad with crack houses, prostitution and other social ills and as I said parts of S. Beach are still very suspect.

I understand your opinions, the problem is they are not based on facts.

Miami will change it has no choice, its that simple and again it is no different than anywhere else. You are in Europe and lived here in the 70s and are not from here originally. You don't seem to know the people or the history that well. Even in places like the design district in Miami you see gentrification. That place used to be far worse than what it is now. Did they clean up the area first, nope. People move in, police tightened up patrolling and such and the area changed. As I said, it always happens that way. As for Miami governance being well run or functional or "working". Not by a long shot, if it worked it wouldn't be one of the worst hit cities in this economic crisis in N. America. There is lots of corruption and inept leadership but that too has to change or that place is toast.
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:28 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,457,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doggiebus View Post
Just because 73% of the condos have closed doesn't mean that people are living in all 73% of those condos. Many speculators are still sitting on their condos. Its going to take a few years for these condos to fully sell out and people to move in (with the exception of some being second homes).

Anyone able to fix the link?
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 541,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
Gentrification is bad, and a sign of poor economic fundamentals. A growing middle class with falling real estate prices is the sign of a healthy economy with a bright future. High real estate sucks up money that could otherwise go to productive enterprise and sends it to the unproductive (bankers, lawyers, etc) giving the area a bad future. Thus is Miami today. "Pushing out" the low income residents is a bad idea because they have nowhere to go and will stubbornly hold on the ghettoes while collecting welfare and medicaid. The solution to the problem is to encourage lower real estate values and lower taxes and then burn the confusing Miami-Dade and city of Miami codes which are preventing new business. Clean out the city and county halls of the corruption that repels innovation. The goal is to strenghten the middle class and keep the speculators away. As the middle class grows the poor will either be absorbed into them or move away to the new ghettos of West Kendall, the zero-lot line homes the middle class will reject. Otherwise the lure of real homes with a real yard always overrides the cramped downtown lifestyle.
The first sentence and the last sentence....I'll have to disgaree with....and I'll explain why. Otherwise...I agree with you regarding the destruction of the productive economy by real estate speculators (and ruthless capitalist specualators in cohorts with corrupt governments and their lobbies)

1. "GENTRIFICATION IS BAD"
Not necessarily. What I'm seeing here is a logical movement of classes in the direction of their workplaces. The office classes closer to the skyscrapers and the working classes closer to suburban production.
Of course...the public transportation is there to take everyone in everywhich direction. You're still going to have some working classes downtown...and office classes in the suburbs.
So...you have an upper middle class which still enjoys the suburbs and doesn't mind taking the subway+suburban train+ car to get to their suburban homes.
Then I'm seeing a growing upper middle class which doesn't want to travel far, which wants to be RIGHT on the subway line, right downtown, right in the hub of things. And this second group is getting bigger and often have a lot of money (inherited and new wealth). They're willing to pay a premium for their centrally located living spaces. They don't care too much about the size of their yards...don't mind sharing pools, gyms, party rooms. They don't want to be bothered with anything but living and breathing, working hard and partying harder.

2. "THE LURE OF REAL HOMES, WITH A REAL YARD ALWAYS OVERRIDES THE CRAMPED DOWNTOWN LIFESTYLE".
Not necessarily so. This "yard & land" fetish is part a very old, traditional Northern, Western & Eastern European mentality. We love our gardens. We love puttering. We could plant anything and it would grow. We had lots of water. We cherish industriousness, knowledge, honesty. (Unlike the Mediterranean population we're neither avid traders nor overt hedonists. To them...gold was wealth. Trade was its source)
Ours was a puritanical world (of hard work being a virtuous activity) in which land ownership symbolized wealth. "Arbeit macht frei".
That's not the rest of the world, and that wasn't the urban Europe of the last 200 years. Another Europe developed simultuneously (which didn't emigrate) in the urban, densely populated towns & cities. These people actually enjoy living in their cities, and only escaping on the weekends or holidays. To them, urban living was a sign of success. Education was salvation and a way of escaping the hard life of rural peasantry and small towns' limited opportunities and narrow mindedness. Cities were guarantors of prosperity for it's in the cities that "things happend", money changed hands, stuff was invented, deals were made.

I have a cousin in Europe who bought an awful little apartment in the city's old core, just so she doesn't have to walk another 15 minutes to the outskirts (which are considered the boons...), although there....for the same $$$ she could have built a nice little villa. She belongs to the upper middle class and also owns a suburban house in a neighbouring town 30 km away, where she spends her weekeneds.
I had a Brazilian neighbour (educated and well employed) who refused to buy a house because he didn't want to do any manual labour, ie repairs etc...are way too expensive in N. America. In Brazil labourers were always very cheap and he never learned to do any manual work. In his society labour was a symbol of poverty & deprivation (whereas to my father hard work was a symbol of decency and prosperity ).
I have a Black Canadian friend who hates any non-office work yet gladly does manual labour around his house becuase to him a suburban house is a sign of success, and that kind of work gives him a feeling of accomplishment; a feeling of having escaped the poverty of apartment living of his childhood and joined the middle class N. American mainstream.

In sum....there are different mentalities around this world. We may fantasize about living in a suburban home, with a huge yard....but my son is fantasizing about living in Manhattan. Once he saw Paris, he begged me to buy a place ("please mom, even just a tiny room...so we can always come back") there as well.
The new generation is being practically "brainwashed" into clean & green living, environmental conservation and safe sex .
God help me if I ever buy anything bigger than a 4 cylinder car (for my son will hang me).

Last edited by SadieMirsade; 07-11-2009 at 07:22 PM..
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Old 07-11-2009, 07:37 PM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Anyone able to fix the link?
read this

there is another article i cant find that calls miami herald out for one day reporting how downtown is filling up and the next day saying its 68% vacant. Will post if i can find it.

edit

found this link

Last edited by Wild Style; 07-11-2009 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 07-12-2009, 02:45 AM
 
1,257 posts, read 3,023,399 times
Reputation: 400
Wild


I also lived during the 80's there, through Mariel and the Riots. I have family living there since the 50's.

You are comparing South Miami Beach during the 70's and 80's and Downtown, and you're talking about gentrification of South Miami Beach.

During the 70's, I don't recall seeing AA in South Miami, maybe there were there, but they were not noticeable. Yes, the Art Deco section was a rather dilapidated section, but crime was not a serious problem. No crack houses, no crack in those days, no prostitution except in very localized spots around Collins. The place was safe, though the old people there were rather paranoid.

During the 80's a lot of Marielitos moved to cheap efficiencies there and crime skyrocketed during a short period. As to the sections with "Projects" in Miami Beach, I don't think they were there during the 70's (I might be wrong). Miami Beach was a Sun Down city so those slums must be the idea of crazy politicians.

Miami Beach was not "gentrification" per se, all those Jewish retirees were not criminals or dangerous elements, or specially poor. What happened there was that investors bought those Art Deco hotels and buildings, expelled old people, refurbished the area and spent a lot of money to attract certain crowd and tourists.

They didn't have to deal with crime and sections like Overtown or Little Haiti, and they only had to displace some beach bums.

I saw a recent film about South Beach, about the people there, and the place was obnoxious compared to the 70's. A lot of AA with a very bad attitude, real low class Latins, show off creepos, police on the beach, there was an air of artificiality. No gentrification at all.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:57 AM
 
Location: America
6,980 posts, read 15,120,157 times
Reputation: 2059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leovigildo View Post
Wild


I also lived during the 80's there, through Mariel and the Riots. I have family living there since the 50's.

You are comparing South Miami Beach during the 70's and 80's and Downtown, and you're talking about gentrification of South Miami Beach.

During the 70's, I don't recall seeing AA in South Miami, maybe there were there, but they were not noticeable. Yes, the Art Deco section was a rather dilapidated section, but crime was not a serious problem. No crack houses, no crack in those days, no prostitution except in very localized spots around Collins. The place was safe, though the old people there were rather paranoid.

During the 80's a lot of Marielitos moved to cheap efficiencies there and crime skyrocketed during a short period. As to the sections with "Projects" in Miami Beach, I don't think they were there during the 70's (I might be wrong). Miami Beach was a Sun Down city so those slums must be the idea of crazy politicians.

Miami Beach was not "gentrification" per se, all those Jewish retirees were not criminals or dangerous elements, or specially poor. What happened there was that investors bought those Art Deco hotels and buildings, expelled old people, refurbished the area and spent a lot of money to attract certain crowd and tourists.

They didn't have to deal with crime and sections like Overtown or Little Haiti, and they only had to displace some beach bums.

I saw a recent film about South Beach, about the people there, and the place was obnoxious compared to the 70's. A lot of AA with a very bad attitude, real low class Latins, show off creepos, police on the beach, there was an air of artificiality. No gentrification at all.
well it seems news articles and others who lived here during that time don't seem to agree with you. Think its another one of those reality versus bizarro world comparisons you often do and I have no idea what AA has to do with this situation. The crime in S. Beach at that time and now seems to be/have been latinos my friend not that, that makes any difference.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:58 AM
 
1,257 posts, read 3,023,399 times
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have no idea what AA has to do with this situation. The crime in S. Beach at that time and now seems to be/have been latinos my friend
----------------------

Your lines above summarize why Downtown will never work.
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