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I think it would be better if these same people learned to tolerate different culture instead of just get mad if they hear people speaking spanish. If you ask me, they are the ones who are intolerant.. " dat dare brown man aint no speakin dat english, he aint no american". Guess what, this is America, we speak what we want and do what we want.
GMAFB
In this town, it's the natives who are expected by the cubans to learn spanish to adapt to THEM.
You're right: this is America, and you can speak what you want, which apparently is to arrogantly expect the natives to adapt to the cubans instead of the other way around.
Honestly, folks, I apologize. I am not trying to muckrake but to get an open dialogue going. I am going to concede and say you all are right. Or should I say white? j/k. But, please someone educate me because I have never mistaken a person of Spanish speaking descent for an "Anglo" as you Miamians like to say. I can tell right off the bat. It's just mannerisms, facial structure, body language, hair, speech patterns, or maybe it's that thing that the Highlander has when he knows other immortals are around. Am I in the minority? Because there is no blending in to me. I would never mistake a blue eyed Cuban for a blue eyed Irishman.
I know this went into a totally different direction then what the OP projected, but I'm glad we're having this discussion because I'm gaining new insight and learning something new. I certainly don't prescribe to the ideology that someone is "not white enough," however where I come from and the people I know will 100% disagree with the suggestions put forth here about Hispanics and whiteness. I did a quick search and I found that in a number of sites, though there is no definitive web site that will give an answer, that Cubans are usually singled out as being white in regard to Hispanic populations. I formed my own opinions based on people I grew up with and history. For example, I don't dispute Argentinians, Uruguayans, Chileans, and Brazilians are white...obviously not all of them are. But, Argentina and the other countries I mentioned will certainly have a larger white population because of the lack of mixing with slaves and indigenous peoples to a larger degree than in Central America, the Caribbean, and northern South America. There was also a huge influx of Europeans during and after WWII. That time period would not really see miscegenation especially in wealthy European families. I have Argentinian friends who are of Jewish, Italian, and German descent. They do not look Latin or Hispanic whatsoever and honestly I consider them white before I would a person from one of the islands near where I was born.
This seems to be the crux of the problem in how you judge people on their "race." You are forming unncessary groups like Argentinian = white and Cuban = non white. That's not fair. How would people like it if we said that people from the United States are white, regardless of their color or racial mixture? The white/non-white ratio in Argentina is 94/6. The same ratio is 37/63 in Cuba. As you can see, it would be just as unfair to label someone white just because they are from Argentina as it would be to label someone as non-white just because they are from Cuba. You need to throw out the generalizations and look at a person and their family. Sure, an Argentinian is more likely to be non-mixed white than a Cuban, but that doesn't mean that a white Cuban is any less white than an Argentinian.
The demographics of the island of Cuba are as follows: 51% mulatto, 37% white, 11% black, 1% Asian (Chinese). However, this has changed over the years. As recently as 1959 (when Fidel took over), it was said that Cuba was 65-70% white. Many of these white Cubans left for Miami and had children there. In the year 2000, a survey was done of Miami Cubans and Cuban-Americans. Guess what percentage were white? A whopping 95%. This is probably skewed from some mixed people claiming to be white, but as someone who grew up down there and knew plenty of Cuban people and Cuban areas, it would not surprise me if 75-80% or more Cubans and Cuban Americans in Miami were unmixed white. Really. The overwhelming majority of Cuban-American kids who attended school with me had no visible admixture and neither did their parents. The new arrivals (that came in the 1990s and 2000s) were a racially diverse group that includes white, blacks, and mulattos. People called a spade a spade... if you were white Cuban you were racially "white," if you were black Cuban you were racially "black," and if you were mixed you were called "mixed" or "mulato."
Quote:
Originally Posted by schiphol
Like I said I grew up thinking and seeing things a certain way. Incidentally, I asked my girlfriend and some other non-ethnic white friends what they consider Cubans, PRs, and such...if they think of them as white and they said no.
It's a pretty loaded question (meaning, that you're more likely to get the answer for which you're looking) to ask "Are Cubans and Puerto Ricans white?" Want to know why? Because people in NYC are used to seeing mulatto Puerto Ricans and "whitish" Puerto Ricans who, despite their light skin, have visible African and/or Taíno ancestry. You need to ask a better question: Get a specific person and ask "Is this person white?" I LIVE in NYC and have met plenty of people who were born and raised in this area (many of them Hispanic) and I have never heard such a stark, non-compromosing viewpoint as that which your friends hold. I have had some people shocked that I speak Spanish, but they get over it immediately and comment that they don't see people as white as me very often or lovingly refer to me as "blanquito." A similar thing happened to my friend who is Euro-Mexican. The person engaging her was a little surprised, but got over it. I just recently had a friend tell me that she is glad to have moved to NYC because she has never known that there were a lot of white Latins and that she loves Euro-Latin guys because she can feel like she has an "ethnic" boyfriend yet please her parents by bringing home a white guy. Mind you, this is a Southern belle with conservative parents!
Quote:
Originally Posted by schiphol
In Miami, is this whiteness spoken about or taught in schools or at home?
I don't mean to sound insulting, but it's common sense. Are little Irish-American children "taught" that they are white? They just know they are and when their parents talk to them about black people, Asians, etc. they eventually let their children know that they are "white." Same thing with white Latin children in Miami. It's so remedial that it's not even really taught in school.
Schiphol, I want to thank you for being so respectful and willing to learn in this discussion. Moving to Miami teaches you a lot
Honestly, folks, I apologize. I am not trying to muckrake but to get an open dialogue going. I am going to concede and say you all are right. Or should I say white? j/k. But, please someone educate me because I have never mistaken a person of Spanish speaking descent for an "Anglo" as you Miamians like to say. I can tell right off the bat. It's just mannerisms, facial structure, body language, hair, speech patterns, or maybe it's that thing that the Highlander has when he knows other immortals are around. Am I in the minority? Because there is no blending in to me. I would never mistake a blue eyed Cuban for a blue eyed Irishman.
Mannerisms, body language, speech patterns YES, but hair - NO and facial structures, NOT SO MUCH. When dealing with white Hispanics their hair will not be kinky or African-looking like some of the "light skinned" mulatto Dominicans and Puerto Ricans you see in NYC. Same goes with facial structure.. don't look for African features if you know a person is white Hispanic. However, if you are good at picking out Mediterranean facial features you have a one up because you'll be able to more easily distinguish between people of Latin descent (French, Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian) and people of Anglo-Saxon descent. White Hispanics usually (but not always) have more Mediterranean features.
I confuse, SOMEBODY HELP ME, my father and my grandfather are from Galizia(Spain) however my grand grand father is from Ireland, but I was born in Cuba, so What AM I?
Its not a Miami "thing" because the same can be said anywhere, and Ive always thought the same way even before moving to Florida. Its just how things really are, now the media and the populace is think differently, most people in this country would stupidly enough think hispanic is a race but the fact is a hispanic can be white, black, asian, indian, w/e. Again its not a Miami thing it what things are.\
And I dont know how you can tell if a cop is hispanic or not since they can be either or and look the same in most cases. I personally know white/caucasian w/e cops one works for Hialeah and my other friend works in North Miami both live in Miami Lakes. Like I said before nearly every police chief in Dade is either white or black, in a quick search I only found 3 hispanic chiefs, all I can say is that they do exist and they are not even that rare to tell you the truth.
"Is it that important for people to be considered white down here. IS it status or a high level of attainment or something? ...I don't run out in the street and fight for whiteness b/c I don't care."
I believe you've nailed the exact issue down there. People know EXACTLYwhat you meant and making you the "bad guy" because of your chosen words denying the concept of your original thought.
Speaking as an "outsider" from PA, who's totally confused about all this "infighting" it's apparent that people are just running around in circles chasing their tail like the proverbial dog. Nobody from any other state in the country would take this fight seriously. Just trying to make up definitions and labels for what exact purpose?
Debating that "Hispanic is not a race" and "most people in this country would stupidly enough think hispanic is a race" sounds ridiculous to the rest of the "stupid Americans" in the rest of the ENTIRE COUNTRY going about living our lives while defining your "category" is such a passionate issue for you.
The criteria is set by the government and until it is abandoned, Hispanic will continue to be an official measure of citizenship called race for statistical tracking and legal and benefit purposes. *See below.
I'd like to suggest you (not the OP) get over your hangups about this crusade just like the OP says, stop running around fighting about if you're "white" or not, it doesn't make any difference to anyone but you, just like African Americans don't run around broadcasting the genealogy of every person in their heritage and Caucasians don't run around arguing about if they are Italian or Irish depending on their genealogy.
You are living in the USA, where Hispanic is labeled a race. Somebody better "EDUCATE" the stupid government (by your way of thinking) that they and the entire population needs to stop calling Hispanic a race. Since the GOVERNMENT has chosen to call it such.
Census from Citydata:
* Races in Miami:
Hispanic (65.8%)
Black (22.3%)
White Non-Hispanic (11.8%)
Other race (5.4%)
Two or more races (4.7%)
American Indian (0.5%)
(Total can be greater than 100% because Hispanics could be counted in other races)
Oh, I get it. You're here to change the USA, except where it benefits you such as in politicians courting your VOTES, listening to YOUR agendas and in Affirmative Action give aways like admission to colleges , ESL programs (ok, we know you're not interested in that,) scholarships, job positions filled due to race like police and fire, business loans etc.....because of your "race" and other Equal Opportunity perks.
NEWSFLASH: The stupid Americans you enjoy putting down could care less if you fit into a definition of white or not. The people causing all the drama are YOU GUYS not us. By being called a race it only benefits YOU not us. Again you draw attention to yourselves appearing as "a bunch of ingrates".
The positions you hold as residents could have gratefully been filled by plenty of others such as Asians, Russians, Europeans and the poor victims of the IRAQ WAR who can't get in here after we destroyed their country and they are on a waiting list.
Again, more "immigrants" that won't leave the USA alone to become a true "melting pot" but insisting on drawing minute ethnic and racial lines everywhere you look. Immature is right, downright silly.
Here's another tip. If you don't want to perpetuate the concept of being a different RACE stop creating your own isolation and speak English. Also stop trying to make the USA population care about your issues such as Fidel and the Bay of Pigs, over 30 years ago.
Its not a Miami "thing" because the same can be said anywhere, and Ive always thought the same way even before moving to Florida. Its just how things really are, now the media and the populace is think differently, most people in this country would stupidly enough think hispanic is a race but the fact is a hispanic can be white, black, asian, indian, w/e. Again its not a Miami thing it what things are.\
And I dont know how you can tell if a cop is hispanic or not since they can be either or and look the same in most cases. I personally know white/caucasian w/e cops one works for Hialeah and my other friend works in North Miami both live in Miami Lakes. Like I said before nearly every police chief in Dade is either white or black, in a quick search I only found 3 hispanic chiefs, all I can say is that they do exist and they are not even that rare to tell you the truth.
Sorry but you just undermined your own position.
HOW would you find Hispanic Chiefs? You don't want Hispanics to be called races but you expect the USA to give Affirmative Action jobs to Hispanics?
How? By last name? By mother's native language? How did you determine there were 3? What about if there was a Hispanic female who took the last name of a non-Hispanic in marriage? What if the person's father had a non Hispanic last name? You can take that to an absurd degree. And are.....
By the way, how do you know that a police officer is "black"? By their facial features? Can one of them be Hispanic? Is an African American with an Hispanic parent black or Hispanic? What about when the government has to fill a slot for AFFIRMATIVE ACTION?
You guys are seriously living in your own world. "now the media and the populace is think differently,".....
Uhhh,,,no, we have adopted the guidelines as set by the USA government, the government you have chosen to live under that provides BENEFITS to "HISPANIC race" where politicians show up down there to beg for your vote by pretending to care about your issues. The guidelines were set because of complaints from the HISPANIC DEMOGRAPHIC, not by the rest of the citizens, we could care less and think it's ridiculous.
If you want things to change then I suggest a good way is for YOU all to stop focusing on "race" and "ethnicity" yourselves. You can't have it both ways.
Try learning WHY the USA has the term Hispanic Race before complaining about it; unbelievable that people living here supposedly as citizens are so clueless about such an important topic....maybe stop focusing on petty things and learn about this country would HELP:
Affirmative action is probably the most misunderstood civil rights issue of our time. Opponents believe that it is misguided social engineering that uses quotas and preferences to replace qualified white males with unqualified Ethnic minorities and women. In reality, affirmative action is a tool to promote diversity and remedy inequities in the workplace, higher education, and government contracting. Affirmative action clearly helps African, Hispanic (Latino), and Asian Americans.
What is affirmative action
he Civil Rights Act of 1964 made discrimination unlawful in the workplace, federally-funded programs, and privately-owned facilities open to the public. In 1965, Congress passed the Voting Rights Act, which gave the U.S. Department of Justice the power to take "affirmative" steps to eliminate discrimination. Also during that year, President Lyndon Johnson issued Executive Order 11246, which gave the U.S. Department of Labor affirmative action enforcement responsibility. A department under the DOL, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, began requiring government contractors to analyze the demographics of their workforce and take proactive measures to remedy any inequality. Over the years, affirmative action has been used as a tool to fight discrimination in other venues, including government employment, corporate America, and admissions to public universities. More recently, affirmative action has come under fire in the courts, mostly because opponents believe that it is a form of reverse discrimination that unfairly penalizes white males for the "sins of the past".
Affirmative action vs. quotas
Perhaps the most controversial issue about affirmative action is whether it uses "quotas". Affirmative action programs should: a) verify that inequities exist, b) set goals to eliminate the inequities, c) set timetables to meet the goals, d) disband the program after the goals are met. Opponents of affirmative action argue that setting a goal is the same thing as instituting a quota, meaning that a specific outcome is mandated rather than highly desirable. For example, if an employer knows that it has a large disparity between the proportion of Hispanics in its workforce versus the general population, it might use affirmative action to target its recruiting efforts toward the Hispanic population in hopes of increasing Hispanic new hires. It should identify a goal of how many Hispanics it wants to hire, at what levels, and in what timeframe. If the employer mandates that a specific job must go to a Hispanic, or that a specific number of Hispanics must be hired, that is a quota.
If affirmative action were just about quotas, you would find that: a) a significant percentage of hires and promotions would go to under-qualified Ethnic minorities, b) the goals of all affirmative action programs would be met, and within the set timetables, and c) they would be sunsetted. While there are instances in which a more-qualified non-Ethnic minority is passed over for a less-qualified or even under-qualified Ethnic minority, these cases are few and far between for one simple reason: to institute such a policy makes no business sense whatsoever. The main reason is that the punishment for not meeting the goals and timetables does not justify promoting a lesser-skilled workforce. Employers and agencies can typically comply with affirmative action programs through their efforts more so than their results. That is why although progress continues to be made, most affirmative action programs fail to meet their goals and timetables, and end up continuing rather than being sunsetted.
What's At Stake for the Beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?
Researcher Susan Kaufmann reports that all these groups are threatened by Proposition 2, which recently banned affirmative action in Michigan. Affirmative Action Programs Faced With Elimination When Proposal 2 Becomes Law
[LEFT]Science, math or technology programs for girls.
[LEFT]Summer and after-school programs for either boys or girls, like technology camps for girls.
[LEFT]Recruitment and support programs for high school and community college students in career education programs that are nontraditional for their gender, such as men in nursing and early elementary education or women in engineering or the skilled trades.
[LEFT]Apprenticeship, education and training programs for non-traditional occupations.[
[LEFT]Higher education funding for minority health professionals, who, along with women, are more likely to practice in under-served communities.
[LEFT]Outreach and funding for women and minority math, science and technology teachers.
[LEFT]Review systems designed to monitor and address barriers to achieving full participation, such as discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, age, or disability.
[LEFT]Government outreach programs that ensure that women- and minority-owned businesses have a fair chance to secure government contracts
[LEFT] Scholarships, fellowships and grants at all levels of education that take gender, race, ethnicity or national origin into account.[/LEFT]
[LEFT] Gender-specific community and public health programs, such as breast, cervical and prostate cancer screening, breastfeeding promotion, or prenatal smoking cessation.
[LEFT] Domestic violence programs.
[LEFT] Efforts to ensure adequate representation of women and minorities on boards and commissions, including advisory boards dealing with corrections, education and public health.
Mythbusting Homework:
Consider how you and your community have benefited from affirmative action. Not sure? The following examples will get you started
Have you participated in a bi-lingual educational program?
Have you received information about a job opportunity, training program and any other available benefit in a language, a publication or format targeted to your community?
Is your mother, wife, sister, daughter, aunt, grandmother or any other female family member a police officer, firefighter, scientist, fireman, doctor, lawyer, accountant, engineer, floor manager, shop steward, principal, business owner, professor, supervisor, store manager, builder, painter, plumber, electrician, carpenter?
Are you a female who holds any of the occupations?
Do you work in a diverse workforce?
Have you attended an integrated school?
Have you been taught or mentored by a person of color or a woman?
Have you been served by a diverse police force and fire department?
Have you received health screening for diseases or health conditions related to your gender or ethnicity such as breast cancer, sickle cell anemia, or tasacks disease?
Have you received benefits from community outreach and development program?
If you answered YES to any of these questions, you have benefited from affirmative action!
U.S. Department of Labor - Employment Standards Administration (ESA) - Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) - Facts on Executive Order 11246 — Affirmative Action (http://www.dol.gov/esa/ofccp/regs/compliance/aa.htm - broken link)
Operation of the Executive Order Program. The EEO Clause
Each contracting agency in the Executive Branch of government must include the equal opportunity clause in each of its nonexempt government contracts. The equal opportunity clause requires that the contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. American Indian or Alaskan Native, Asian or Pacific Islander, Black, and Hispanic individuals are considered minorities for purposes of the Executive Order. This clause makes equal employment opportunity and affirmative action integral elements of a contractor’s agreement with the government. Failure to comply with the non-discrimination or affirmative action provisions is a violation of the contract.
A contractor in violation of E.O. 11246 may have its contracts canceled, terminated, or suspended in whole or in part, and the contractor may be debarred, i.e., declared ineligible for future government contracts. However, a contractor cannot be debarred without being afforded the opportunity for a full evidentiary hearing. Debarments may be for an indefinite term or for a fixed term. When an indefinite term debarment is imposed, the contractor may be reinstated as soon as it has demonstrated that the violations have been remedied. A fixed-term debarment establishes a trial period during which a contractor can demonstrate its commitment and ability to establish personnel practices that are in compliance with the Executive Order.
If a matter is not resolved through conciliation, OFCCP may refer the matter to the Office of the Solicitor of Labor, which is authorized to institute administrative enforcement proceedings. After a full evidentiary hearing, a Department of Labor Administrative Law Judges issues recommended findings of fact, conclusions of law, and a recommended order. On the basis of the entire record, the Secretary of Labor issues a final Administrative Order. Cases also may be referred to the Department of Justice for judicial enforcement of E.O. 11246, primarily when use of the sanctions authorized by the Order is impracticable, such as a case involving a sole source supplier.
The regulations implementing the Executive Order establish different affirmative action provision for non-construction (i.e., service and supply) contractors and for construction contractors.
La Raza site listing all the grievances of the populace against the USA. If you don't want to appear different than other Americans, tell La Raza. Also tell them you have a great new way to add up all the Hispanic/Latino vote. (you have to think of a way, first though since you don't like our government's way)......
Last edited by runswithscissors; 07-15-2008 at 03:26 AM..
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Affirmative Action Benefits for "Hispanic"
